Classic anti-illogic

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ZeSpectre

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Listen to what the person in this interview says to a NH reporter.

My favorite was her response when asked what she thought the problem was...
(gun owners) plan for protecting is that they’ll pull out their guns and start shooting the shooter. I think that is a terrible situation. What are the rest of us supposed to do, duck and cover?

So what does she think the police would do, use harsh language?

Plus all the examples of violence she cites are GUN FREE ZONES like she wanted to create in NH. AND SHE THINKS SHE'S MAKING SENSE!

Plus her admission that she "doesn't know what the security plans are", but she does "know" that her plan is better? Ha ha hahahaha.
 
Well, if someone is shooting, whether or not someone else tries stops him by shooting at him, you should probably be running at full speed towards the door. Perhaps she just thinks that if someone doesn't piss the shooter off more by shooting at him she can just go up and ask him to stop and they can all hold hands and sing kumbaya :scrutiny:?
 
What are the rest of us supposed to do, duck and cover?

Hey, it works for the military. That's why you yell "RELOADING" before you duck and cover to do it. That way the guy next to you knows to cover your fire zone while you are getting the next mag in.
 
(gun owners) plan for protecting is that they’ll pull out their guns and start shooting the shooter. I think that is a terrible situation. What are the rest of us supposed to do, duck and cover?
Seems like a much better plan than letting him shoot people until he runs out of ammunition, gets bored and leaves, or shoots himself.
 
she has been discussed here before. A classic case of keeping the old mouth shut and being thought a fool rather than opening it and removing all doubt.
 
Today, 06:36 AM #1
ZeSpectre wrote:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Listen to what the person in this interview says to a NH reporter.

My favorite was her response when asked what she thought the problem was...

Quote:
(gun owners) plan for protecting is that they’ll pull out their guns and start shooting the shooter. I think that is a terrible situation. What are the rest of us supposed to do, duck and cover?

So what does she think the police would do, use harsh language?
....


hmmmm this seems to me as though you are equating gun owners to be equal to the police duty to citizens. Do you really see an equal relationship amongst the groups ?
 
I wish the reporter had jumped on her when she talked about putting up gun free signs. She probably would have blown a fuse.
Anyway it's nice to see my home state of NH fighting hard against sheeple fear tactics:cool:
 
Are they suposed to duck and cover? That's what I'd do! Duck and cover and start shooting back. What they do is their own choice.
 
So what does she think the police would do, use harsh language?
....



hmmmm this seems to me as though you are equating gun owners to be equal to the police duty to citizens. Do you really see an equal relationship amongst the groups ?

I am not ZeSpectre, though I pretend to be while prank calling...

I don't think what he said was trying to equate armed citizens to the police as far as responsibilities go, just that if someone is shooting at you or the group you are in there is only one solid remedy, and that is to shoot the person until he is no longer capable of harming anyone.

Police duty involves things like writing reports and fingerprinting people, as well as protecting their lives and the lives of those around them from lethal violence and felony assaults. That's where we overlap with the police, all citizens have the right to protect themselves and those around them from felony violence, and so do the police. The means to fight back are exactly the same, the police just have vests and backup.
 
Regarding the police, the public, their relative duties and responsibilities, Lawdog recently wrote this:

"The Police are the Public, and the Public are the Police."
The title to this post is a quote attributed to Sir Robert Peel.

Known as the "Father of Modern Policing", Sir Robert was the man responsible for the creation of what many believe to be the first modern professional police department -- the Metropolitan Police Force in London.

Prior to Sir Roberts little experiment, the British in the 1800's had a strong antipathy for the idea of a full-time police department -- matter-of-fact, it was seen as a threat to liberty and a (and this is a direct quote from JP Smith): "...disturbance of all private happiness."

Nonetheless, everyone -- from the man in the street to the last politician -- agreed that the old system of watchmen simply wasn't working. Matter-of-fact, the perception was that crime wasn't only rampant, but that it was sharply rising.

Enter Sir Robert.

In order to mollify those who believed that professional police were "a curse and a despotism", and secure their aid in creating his professional police force, Sir Robert Peel developed what became known as The Peelian Principles; which are considered to be the basic foundation for all modern policing:



1) The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.

2) The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.

3) Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.

4) The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.

5) Police seek and preserve public favor not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.

6) Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.

7) Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

8) Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.

9) The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.


My academy devoted two days to the study of Sir Robert and his Principles of Policing. I am of the firm opinion that these Principles should be Gospel for every Peace Officer.

There are times, though, when I am forced to wonder if some of my fellow Peace Officers have even heard of the Peelian Principles.

And I guaran-damn-tee you that a whole bunch of politicians and police administrators (but I repeat myself) have never heard of #9.

Anyone who doubts this should listen to the next District Attorney, County Commissioner, Representative or any other critter cite the rising number of arrests as proof that their pet anti-crime law is working.

*sigh*

LawDog
 
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hmmmm this seems to me as though you are equating gun owners to be equal to the police duty to citizens. Do you really see an equal relationship amongst the groups ?

NG VI hit it on the head earlier.
She's upset at the concept that citizens would resort to guns and shooting to stop a violent criminal but I'm betting she hasn't even considered that the cops would use precisely the same method to stop someone. I guess she thinks that LE would just wave some magic wand and make things okay?
 
It's pretty obvious that she's never probably even fired a gun in her entire pitiful life and thinks that people will just pull guns out and start spraying the place with bullets. It's also pretty obvious that she's one of the fools who believes that everyone is nice, but some are misunderstood and only need a little counselling to calm them down and get them to see that their way might not be nice. Everybody is good, some just haven't been raised by the whole village and need help.:barf::barf:

What she hasn't considered is that help would likely need to come out of the barrel of someone's gun.:eek::eek:
 
I guess the thing that annoys me the most (and makes me the most glad that she got shut down) is that there was NO PROBLEM in the first place...until she created one.
 
i like the part were she wants "securty" in the bldg...
she states she does not have access to how security is done in there. and that it is not her job to say how it is done.:eek:


.
 
She mentioned that the State House would have a 'shootout at the OK corral,' its kind of ironic, but she probably didn't know that the good guys won on that day and no innocent bystanders got shot.

How does the lowest common denominator like this get elected to office? I'm not blaming NH as there are idiots like this in government in all states. She must have used her credentials as a school teacher in several different states as a campaign theme for her to be qualified for the job. No offense to public school teachers here and elsewhere as many of them are fine individuals and excellent teachers, but the public school system has become a haven for moonbats as well.
 
well at least im happy to see that theres a few places where the opposition to such idiocy is so strong and outspoken.

I might just have to move a few states east.
 
They always bring up the possibility (more like definate) that an innocent bystander could be shot. Don't they realize that even if an innocent or two are injured, it is still better than what would have happened otherwise? (certain death when the shooter walks down the line and executed each person calmly).

No thanks...Since I'm disarmed in the classroom, I'll be damned if I'm going to sit back and wait to be killed. If I know I'm going to die, I'm going to ****ing give it all I can and try my damnest to fight back with my knife, book, pen, fists, whatever.
 
"Police duty involves things like writing reports and fingerprinting people, as well as protecting their lives and the lives of those around them from lethal violence and felony assaults."

In fact, the police have NO DUTY TO PROTECT THE LIVES OF CITIZENS.

Here is an excerpt from a website "Taking on Gun Control"

"One of the basic themes of gun control is that only the police and military should have handguns or any type of firearm. I cannot explain their rationale, other than to say that gun control proponents must believe that the police exist to protect the citizenry from victimization. But in light of court decisions we find such is not the case. You have no right to expect the police to protect you from crime. Incredible as it may seem, the courts have ruled that the police are not obligated to even respond to your calls for help, even in life threatening situations!. To be fair to our men in blue, I think most officers really do want to save lives and stop dangerous situations before people get hurt. But the key point to remember is that they are under no legal obligation to do so.
Case Histories
Ruth Brunell called the police on 20 different occasions to plead for protection from her husband. He was arrested only one time. One evening Mr. Brunell telephoned his wife and told her he was coming over to kill her. When she called the police, they refused her request that they come to protect her. They told her to call back when he got there. Mr. Brunell stabbed his wife to death before she could call the police to tell them that he was there. The court held that the San Jose police were not liable for ignoring Mrs. Brunell's pleas for help. Hartzler v. City of San Jose, 46 Cal. App. 3d 6 (1st Dist. 1975).
[Those of you in the Silicon Valley, please note what city this happened in!]

Consider the case of Linda Riss, in which a young woman telephoned the police and begged for help because her ex-boyfriend had repeatedly threatened "If I can't have you no one else will have you, and when I get through with you, no-one else will want you." The day after she had pleaded for police protection, the ex-boyfriend threw lye in her face, blinding her in one eye, severely damaging the other, and permanently scarring her features. "What makes the City's position particularly difficult to understand," wrote a dissenting opinion in her tort suit against the City, "is that, in conformity to the dictates of the law, Linda did not carry any weapon for self-defense. Thus, by a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on the City of New York which now denies all responsibility to her." Riss v. New York, 240 N.E.2d 860 (N.Y. 1968). [Note: Linda Riss obeyed the law, yet the law prevented her from arming herself in self-defense.]

Warren v. District of Columbia is one of the leading cases of this type. Two women were upstairs in a townhouse when they heard their roommate, a third woman, being attacked downstairs by intruders. They phoned the police several times and were assured that officers were on the way. After about 30 minutes, when their roommate's screams had stopped, they assumed the police had finally arrived. When the two women went downstairs they saw that in fact the police never came, but the intruders were still there. As the Warren court graphically states in the opinion: ``For the next fourteen hours the women were held captive, raped, robbed, beaten, forced to commit sexual acts upon each other, and made to submit to the sexual demands of their attackers.'' The three women sued the District of Columbia for failing to protect them, but D.C.'s highest court exonerated the District and its police, saying that it is a ``fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen.'' Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981).

The seminal case establishing the general rule that police have no duty under federal law to protect citizens is DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services (109 S.Ct. 998, 1989). Frequently these cases are based on an alleged ``special relationship'' between the injured party and the police. In DeShaney the injured party was a boy who was beaten and permanently injured by his father. He claimed a special relationship existed because local officials knew he was being abused, indeed they had ``specifically proclaimed by word and deed [their] intention to protect him against that danger,'' but failed to remove him from his father's custody. ("Domestic Violence -- When Do Police Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect?'' Special Agent Daniel L. Schofield, S.J.D., FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, January, 1991.)

The Court in DeShaney held that no duty arose because of a "special relationship,'' concluding that Constitutional duties of care and protection only exist as to certain individuals, such as incarcerated prisoners, involuntarily committed mental patients and others restrained against their will and therefore unable to protect themselves. ``The affirmative duty to protect arises not from the State's knowledge of the individual's predicament or from its expressions of intent to help him, but from the limitation which it has imposed on his freedom to act on his own behalf.'' (DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, 109 S.Ct. 998 (1989) at 1006.)

About a year later, the United States Court of Appeals interpreted DeShaney in the California case of Balistreri v. Pacifica Police Department. (901 F.2d 696 9th Cir. 1990) Ms. Balistreri, beaten and harassed by her estranged husband, alleged a "special relationship'' existed between her and the Pacifica Police Department, to wit, they were duty-bound to protect her because there was a restraining order against her husband. The Court of Appeals, however, concluded that DeShaney limited the circumstances that would give rise to a "special relationship'' to instances of custody. Because no such custody existed in Balistreri, the Pacifica Police had no duty to protect her, so when they failed to do so and she was injured they were not liable.

A citizen injured because the police failed to protect her can only sue the State or local government in federal court if one of their officials violated a federal statutory or Constitutional right, and can only win such a suit if a "special relationship'' can be shown to have existed, which DeShaney and its progeny make it very difficult to do. Moreover, Zinermon v. Burch (110 S.Ct. 975, 984 1990) very likely precludes Section 1983 liability for police agencies in these types of cases if there is a potential remedy via a State tort action.

Many states, however, have specifically precluded such claims, barring lawsuits against State or local officials for failure to protect, by enacting statutes such as California's Government Code, Sections 821, 845, and 846 which state, in part: "Neither a public entity or a public employee [may be sued] for failure to provide adequate police protection or service, failure to prevent the commission of crimes and failure to apprehend criminals.''

In other words this means the only people the police are duty-bound to protect are criminals in custody, and other persons in custody for such things as mental disorders. YOU have no recourse if the police fail to respond or fail to protect you from injury!"
 
They always bring up the possibility (more like definate) that an innocent bystander could be shot. Don't they realize that even if an innocent or two are injured, it is still better than what would have happened otherwise? (certain death when the shooter walks down the line and executed each person calmly).
A lot of these types seem to prefer the CERTAINTY of being murdered execution style to the POSSIBILITY of being wounded when the executioner is terminated.

It's the imposition of the herd mentality on human beings. In their twisted view, nobody has a right to actively oppose their own murder. One must instead rely solely upon random chance, like an individual animal in a herd of antelope. They apparently view "predators" like Cho, Hennard, etc., as a part of the natural order of things. Any attempt by their victims to resist actively, is considered "UNnatural".

Needless to say, such idiocy nauseates me, as do its proponents. When I encounter them, either in person or online, I do everything I can to humiliate, embarass and shame them. I've got a pretty good record on that score.
 
(gun owners) plan for protecting is that they’ll pull out their guns and start shooting the shooter. I think that is a terrible situation. What are the rest of us supposed to do, duck and cover?

Yeah, that's pretty funny, Zespectre. The appropriate response would be "hell yes if someone starts shooting you should 'duck and cover', regardless of how many are shooting! The only relevant question is this: Which scenario would you prefer happen, in the event of the worst case - a maniac who is out for revenge for something he perceives you did to him:

1. Maniac shooting at you; you ducking and covering, and no one shooting back, you hoping and praying that hiding behind a desk will stop the bullets;

OR

2. Maniac shooting at you; you ducking and covering, and a good samaritan shooting back at the guy shooting at you, allowing you to escape, or incapacitating the maniac?

Pick one. Now which scenario does your bill facilitate?"
 
When people come up with such idiocy, it's unfortunate no one asks for their background. i.e. "Excuse me, Ms. Dimwit, could you outline your experience in law enforcement or criminology. Have you ever recieved any firearms training or even fired a weapon?"
 
Ya. . antis sometimes are illogical, but in all honesty so are a lot of pro-gun people. Sometimes when people have an opinion (IMO) they ignore the facts when trying to justify it.
 
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