Color me... baffled. 92F vs. Hi-Power two great 9mm pistols

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tarosean ....They are expensive to maintain... That was the reason the British gave to dumping them.
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And it took seventy years to get expensive.;)

Our FBI also dumped them.
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But not because of the expense to maintain, but because of the want for a more powerful round.

And our FBI also "dumped" these (among many):
Colt 1911 Government Model, Detective Special, Police Positive
S&W Models 10, 13, 19, 27, 49, 60, 1076
Sig P226, P228
http://www.americanrifleman.org/GalleryItem.aspx?cid=22&gid=133&id=1169
 
We had some reliability issues with THIS Beretta, though I had no jams my buddy did. He claims he swapped out the extractor recently and isn't sure it's quite right.

Try as I might after 100 + function checks with snap caps I had no fte's but one very odd stoppage where the slide locked open with a round still in the magazine.

I suspect my friend is limp wristing it a bit and the pistol is fine. He has a tendency to wrap his left thumb around his fist and it results in a higher hold. I tried to correct his grip but he kept returning to it.

FWIW my hi-power is an FEG clone. I haven't found a real Browning at the right time and price yet. The three I own now were purchased for less than the price of a Browning.
 
If the Beretta 92FS is too big for you, try the Beretta Px4 Storm Full size or Compact.

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My 92 lives in the center console of my Suburban precisely because I don't really like it. I know it's there, it'll always work, and if I need it, it'll be there, and it'll do it's job. But I don't like it, which is why it's being abused.

I'd never let my precious HP get beat up that way! It's reserved for finer shooting.

I think of the 92 as a modern day Colt Dragoon: Reliable, heavy duty, but too big to carry unless by a horse, slung across the pommel.


Willie

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Never owned/shot a High Power so no opinion other than I like the looks of it. I did buy a 92 INOX to possibly shoot it in EIC matches. It is very reliable and easier to shoot with one hand than I expected. However, it was only ok accurate to the order of 2.5" - 3" groups @ 25 yards meaning 6" or so at 50 if not worse. I read a couple of gun rags testing the 92 or M9 and they did about the same so I took the accuracy as normal.

Well I called KKM and got a semi-fit barrel from them (about 3 day turn around too!). Now I am more of a believer. It came right out under 2" at 25 and the very next group was under 1.5". I am still waiting on an adjustable rear sight but now I like 92s.
 
I'd willingly carry the BHP if allowed. I don't like the 92, never have. The BHP is "an elegant weapon for a more civilized time". It is a classic, the 92 never will be.
 
I have two 9mm's. A CZ75 compact and a browning hi power. I don't plan on ever buying another 9mm

The beretta shoots well but it's big, clunky and has an awful trigger. The BHP doesn't have a 1911 single action trigger, that's for sure. I call it a combat single action. Slightly heavier but a very clean break.
 
I had to stay qualified with the M9 (same as 92) and found it very accurate. However, it wasn't a well thought out pistol. (too) Large frame size for both the cartridge and capacity, exposed trigger bar, trigger was WAY sucky. While possible to shoot very well at qual, I always opted for something else from the armory when I had to draw a handgun. If shooting at speed, the M9 and I were not exactly a simpatico pairing.

I worked for a company right after I got out of the military that issued Hi-Powers. Even with the trigger pull being affected by the magazine disconnect, it was far better than the M9. And it was less bulky.
 
Why did the US not do a high power.....women.

Yes it is a HUGE 9mm but all that mass makes shooting the pistol much more easy for smaller people (women) and women are in the army now :)

I really think that was in the decision making process, that and like you said it is a bear to rack.

20 years ago like you just the opposite....the wife could not rack the HP so we went with a 92fs. She still shoots in in different hand gun games we play to this day....it has been claw hammer reliable.
 
fpgt72 said:
Why did the US not do a high power.....women.

Yes it is a HUGE 9mm but all that mass makes shooting the pistol much more easy for smaller people (women) and women are in the army now :)
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The stock weight on a Beretta 92 is 34oz. The stock weight on a Browning Hi Power is 35oz. The BHP is actually a heavier gun (it has a smaller frame but its steel whereas the Beretta has an aluminum frame), and its got a much smaller grip that would work better for women's hands.

I don't think women in the military had anything to do with it.

Realistically as stated the BHP wasn't in the trial because it didn't meet the specs (too low capacity and single-action), but even within the confines of the trial I have no earthly idea how the SIG P226 came in second place to the Beretta.
 
I don't think women in the military had anything to do with it.
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I agree. Now it may be a consideration, but most likely not in the 1980's.

The Beretta does have a chunky grip. I've seen it described as like a "beer can", which does seem pretty appropriate. However, the controls are all reachable for those with small hands, though the Hi-Power certainly is more small hand friendly.

I often wonder about the shooting experiences of those that gripe about the "evil, backwards, slide mounted safety/decocker". While I'm primarily a 1911 shooter, and used to the frame mounted, down is fire/up is safe, of the 1911. However, from an historic perspective, at the time the Beretta was selected, the most popular semi-auto pistols in US law enforcement hands were the S&W auto's. For the most part, they had the exact same safety/decocker operation as the Beretta. If the US military was looking to modernize and get away from the single action auto, picking the most common, and successful, design used by law enforcement at the time would be a natural. While a SIG style decocker may be a better idea, that design at the time was fairly new, and only used by the one European maker.
 
It is my opinion that it is unfortunate that the decision to replace the 1911 was not delayed an additional 5 years. I don't know what would have been chosen, but I don't think it would have been the Beretta because better ergonomic and economic qualities would have been available from competitors. Ergonomic features the basic design of the B92 could not match without complete redesign and economic qualities from a firearms industry in better condition than 5 years earlier. Even the runner-up, SIG, 5 years later may have been able to reduce costs of production to have won with a lower priced pistol. An additional 5 years of delay would occur after a time when major changes in how self-defense pistols are used was better understood. The Beretta mechanically performs well but does not facilitate the best user performance in most shooters. It is a shame that the low priority accorded to pistols in the modern military means we are stuck for decades with a pistol that has little capability for improvement in user ergonomics.
 
fpgt72 Why did the US not do a high power.....women.

Yes it is a HUGE 9mm but all that mass makes shooting the pistol much more easy for smaller people (women) and women are in the army now
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This is the first time in my life that I've read that the BHP is a "HUGE" 9mm.:scrutiny: On the contrary, nearly everone that holds one says exactly the opposite...."It's so slim!"

I believe if you measure the two you'll discover that the 92 weighs more WHEN LOADED, is LONGER, WIDER, & TALLER than the Hi Power.

The military realized that the 92 was a big fat cow and authorized the M11 (Sig228) for WOMEN and those that need a more concealable handgun. Why the Sig........because Sig complained about the farcical outcome of the handgun trials and DOD threw them a bone.
 
Did S&W not enter a pistol?

The oddest thing, to me, about the Beretta is the amount of space they use to make a DA trigger mechanism, and how some of it is OUTSIDE the frame. Unlike every other DA/SA I can think of.

The BHP is svelte for a hicap 9mm. Slide is SKINNY, skinnier than a 1911.

Came a cross a pic of the PHROBIS made "Navy specwar" slide yesterday---aka how to mod the M9 to an enclosed slide pistol. I recall when Shotgun News was selling them cheap. Neat piece of kit and a collectable curiosity now.
 
The Beretta 92 evolved from the Walther P38, which has a similar external trigger bar. The 92 was also an evolution from the older Beretta 1951. The military requested a D/a auto, high capacity, mag release similar to the 1911, etc, as part of the specs. You can see how the Beretta came to be what it is from those previous guns and the specs requested. They got what they wanted. A gun designed by a committee is not always the best, but it MIGHT be the best compromise of the moment. I own one, and it shoots well. I really cannot say too much bad about it. It does what it was designed to do.
 
My biggest gripe with the '92 is the slide mounted safety/de-cocker. I don't care that it is big as for me it is just an issued sidearm riding in a holster.

For a personal gun, I'd choose the BHP any day over the Beretta. I don't like the mag disconnect safety, but that can be addressed. It has a good SA trigger, easy to use 1911 style safety and is a good balance of size and capacity.

I personally own the one the military should have chosen in those trials...the P226.
 
arspeukinen said:
If the SA trigger has ANY creep, it's broken or been fiddled with. 92 trigger has NO creep.
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Nope, not so. My wife got me a brand new Les Baer that had trigger creep in it. My Hi Power has a slight amount of creep in it because the hammer hooks are taller than the sear face. Got the Baer fixed by a very qualified gunsmith and just shoot the Hi Power like it is.
 
Response to post #36. I've logged a LOT of hours and rounds with the M9. Many of the triggers were okay, a few stood out as being very good, probably a third of the pistols I drew from the armory sucked. First shots from a mag were required to be fired DA and pull is a mile long. Even the SA afterward has a serious amount of take up, then a pull at least twice (length, not weight) of the most wore out 1911 I've ever fired.
 
I have owned a Browning Hi Power MK III for twenty years. It is my most accurate centerfire pistol, and it is box stock. It is "right sized" for the 9MM, and with the 15 round, flush fit Mec Gar mags, has good capacity. It is slim, elegant, and pretty easy to carry. I recently bought a 28 lb mainspring to replace the 32 lb, but as of yet hadn't had the guts to do it, as I have heard it is a bit daunting.

I have owned a Beretta 92FS for about nine months, having avoided the platform all these years due to the design of the slide mounted safety. I bought it after shooting a friend's M9, and actually liking it. I installed a "D" spring (main spring), Elite II hammer, and extended mag release. These mods really transformed the gun, especially lessening the DA trigger pull, and the SA a bit. Yes, it is big, and clunky, but great for a range gun, and home defense.
 
For some reason the 92 and its variants is the pistol I shoot worse in the planet. Never had the opportunity to try the BHP but I'm sure I'll love it. However I think the 92 still kicks many celebrated pistols in the butt when we speak about reliability.
 
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