Colt British Official Police in 38/200

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C

Checkman

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One of the street crimes detective with my department stopped one of our frequent fliers (ex-con,drug dealer,armed robbery etc.) Thursday night. He discovered a Colt Official Police in 38/200 with a five inch barrel and a lanyard ring on the grip frame.

It's in excellent condition and it has British proof markings on it. I thought the only 38/200 revolvers that the British military used was the Enfield and Smith and Wesson (Model 11). I can't find anything on the British buying Colt OP's in 38/200 for their military.

Any help would be appreciated. The gun itself is in great condition. The arresting officers did a very extensive search in NCIC for the gun, but nothing showed up. Knowing the suspect the Colt is defintely stolen.
 
As you are aware, during World War Two Smith & Wesson produce a less highly finished version of their Military & Police revolver, and called it the Victory Model. These were produced in both .38 Special and .38-200.

At Colt they did somewhat the same. Those revolvers assembeled out commercial-grade parts made before before 1942 were marked Official Police, where those less well finished between later 1942 through 1945 were renamed the Commando Model. Both were made in .38 Special and .38-200 (.38 S&W) although most of the latter were in the Commando series. The exact number of .38-200 caliber Official Police and Commando revolvers doesn't seem to be known, but it was very limited in both cases. Colt's primary task was to make machine guns and 1911A1 pistols. Also a considerable number of Official Police revolvers were used to arm domestic police and defense plant guards. Others went to the O.S.S.

I don't believe that Colt produced as many 38-200 revolvers they expected to. Numrich Arms (www.e-gunparts.com) is still offering war surplus Official Police 5" .38-200 barrels (Item #195540-05) for around $26.30.

The most likely background is that the revolver was shipped to England under the Lend Lease program, and then returned to the United States as surplus sometime during the middle-later 1950's I remember them retailing for under $20.00. As a stolen gun it ought to stick out like a sore thumb, but it may be incorrectly listed as a ".38" or ".38 Special."

Provide a serial number (on the frame behind the crane) and I might be able to find more.
 
That's been some of the speculation. Also one of my fellow officers observed that next to the serial number are several proof marks. The arrow symbol and so on. He speculated that perhaps the owner had recorded those symbols as numbers or letters with the serial number.

Well we will keep trying. It's in excellent conditon. I went to www.collectorsfirearms.com and found one for sale. It's not in nearly as good conditon and they want over $500.00 for it.

Unfortunately I've seen guns recovered by us that were reported stolen in Sotuh Carolina, Florida etc. They do get around. I took a report from a local gunshop almost seven years ago regarding a stolen gun. A Kel-Tec 32 auto. It was recovered last year by the Phoenix PD during a warrant search.

One of our retired officers had his S&W Model 19 stoeln back in 2002. It was recovered It was recovered in 2005 by the LAPD. It was in the possession of a dead gangbanger. Amazingly the LAPD sent it back once the murder investigation was closed. They do get around.

Thanks for the info. I knew if you were on the forum you'd help out. Thought about sending you a PM but figured others would find this info intersting.

I'll get the serial number and send it to you.
 
The arrow marks are Government (Military) property marks, not proofs. The marks that have a crown are most likely proof marks. They could be British, or any member of their Commonwealth. They are so rare (or unnoticed) that I find no mention of them in several respected reference books on Colt and/or British World War Two military handguns. They do exist however, as at one time I owned one. I suspect that any contracts that Colt might have had for them after January 1942 were suspended because of the demand from Uncle Sam for revolvers in .38 Special. The orders were then shifted to Smith & Wesson, who were exclusively making K-frame revolvers.

Because few know what they are I believe if it's in a stolen gun database it's just listed as a ".38" or ".38 Special."

You might post a story in the local news media, TV stations, etc. about this very unusual handgun and see if a former owner comes forth. I know of a Police Department back in Michigan that did this concerning a Colt .38 Super that had been used in a murder. It worked! Someone came forward who hadn't realized his gun had been stolen.
 
I've seen a wartime photo of a British NCO with one on his desk, and in a war biography, "The Hundred Days of Lt. MacHorton", the officer profiled had one of these and a Thompson gun in Burma as a member of Wingate's famed Chindit force.

In the USAF in th 1960's, I saw both Official Police and Commando .38 Specials. I heard they came witb a bunch of S&W Victory Models that were transferred from the Navy. They filled the gap until enough S&W M-15's were available.

Lone Star
 
Old Fuff thanks for the help. Some folks on the S&W forum told me that these are fairly rare on our side of the pond. Seems that Colt purchased the OP's in 40-41. Very much a collectors gun and defintely not a revovler you find being used by hoods.

Here is where it gets dicey for that Colt. The suspect has an extensive criminal history.There is a possibility that the local Federal prosecutor would make a case against him because he was in possession of a firearm.

IF this happens the Colt will go to the Feds and of course that means that it would eventually go to a crusher. :( :cuss: :banghead:

That is assuming that we don't locate the legitimate owner.

But if the Feds choose not to go with a prosecution then the Colt will stay in our custody and eventually we will sell it to a local dealer. We clear out our inventory about twice a year and make a fair amount of money on the sales.

If the Colt stays with us then I will attempt to purchase it when it comes up for sale. It seems the least I can do. But before all this can or might happen we will do an ATF trace on it. Just might find the owner.

I know that there are many folks here who HATE the ATF, but there has been a couple times that they've helped us get stolen firearms back to the rightful owners. Perhaps this will be one of those times.
 
I understand how you find yourself between a rock and a hard place... :banghead:

In this case I don't think a BATF&E trace is going to help. If the revolver was made or re-imported after 1968 they might be able to follow a paper trail. As it is, Colt's records will show that it was sold to the British during the early 1940's, and it's most likely it came back during the 1950's when all of the remaining .455 and .38-200 revolvers in their military inventory were classified as obsolete surplus. Most of the Colt, Smith & Wesson, Webley and Enfield revolvers were dumped on our used gun market. Some of this stuff included guns made before and during World War One as well as later. All of this happened well before 1968 and the passage of the Gun Control Act that imposed serious record keeping.

During later years some small lots of Smith & Wesson .38-200 revolvers were imported from Commonwealth countries, but I don't remember any Colt's being advertised.

If the suspect you have in custody is a local, there is a chance he either stole, or purchased the gun on the area black market. It couldn't have been very desirable because of the difficulty in finding ammunition. A press release to the local media might turn up a legal owner that doesn't even know his revolver is missing yet. Questioning owners and their employees at area gun and pawn shops might be productive, because the gun is so unusual someone might remember it, or someone trying to buy .38 S&W ammunition.

Many years ago, I was visited by two detectives. One was a lead investigator, and the other, working undercover, had infiltrated a burglary ring. He had “borrowed” a .30-30 Winchester that he knew was stolen. The trouble was that they had to be able to prove it, and the rifle had to be returned within a half hour or the detective’s cover might be blown. On a hunch, I removed the buttplate, and under it I found the owner’s business card. The rifle was quickly returned, and the owner (who didn’t know his rifle was gone) contacted. With probable cause a warrant was obtained, a search and arrests followed, and the ring was broken up. While I doubt that lightning will strike twice, you should remove the grips and look.
 
I've been in touch with one of the local FBI agents. He said that it's usually up to the local ATF office if the gun will be destroyed or returned to the agency that found it. If nothing has been done to make the weapon illegal it will usually be returned to the local agency. Depends on the area and this is Idaho thank goodness.

That's good news. I've just posted on the Colt forum and I've also posted on the S&W forum and TFL.

Well I'll see what I can do. If nothing else I'll look into buying it if the owner isn't located. Not that it would be a chore to buy a great old Colt. :eek:
 
Fuff-

He has pics up already (or someone does) on the S&W forum. Not the same gun, but the same type.

Lone Star
 
Lone Star:

I know what the revolver looks like, in fact I owned one once. As I remember it cost me something around $25.00....

I was hoping that if the rightful owner couldn't be found, Checkman might be able to buy it, and thereby prevent its destruction by the Feds.

In that case he could post a picture of "the" gun... :evil: ;)
 
For information on Colt Official Police revolvers , caliber .38/200, see Charles Pate's excellent book on "U.S.Handguns of World War Two". 49,764 of these guns were sold to the British between May 1940 and June 1941. They are not rare. Scarce maybe. Thousands were imported back to the US after WW2. The reason you don't notice them that much is probably because there were ten times as many S&W Victory Models imported. Ed.
 
Old Fuff-

Sure that you do know what it looks like. But those who don't can look up those nice photos.

Lone Star
 
I don't ever have any trouble with photographs of neat guns... :cool:

But I thought someone was going to post them here on The High Road specifically for me, and that wasn't necessary. I was somewhat suprised that they posted them on the Smith & Wesson forum though.

The revolver itself is nothing more nor less then a standard Colt Official Police or Commando revolver of early 1940's vintage. Most had 5 inch barrels and all had lanyard loops on the butt. The only thing that shows what they are is markings on the barrel.
 
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Fuff, the sad thing is that many of the current generation have never seen Colt's traditional revolvers.

Many of them never look at gun books, especially Colt-specific ones, and lack much basic handgun knowledge. What they know is what they see on the Web.

So, when good photos of older Colts appear, I like to let members know.

Lone Star
 
That's my intention, but the case has to be ajudicated and a trace will have to be done to see if the owner can be located. An NCIC search didn't do anything and there is no importer stamp on the weapon so I don't think that a trace will be all that much.

But we have to try and contrary to what some folks post on this forum we will make a concerted effort to find the owner. Which is one of the reasons why I've posted here.
 
Okay so it's five years later. It's still in our evidence locker. The Feds didn't want to keep it. Yeah. The legal case has long since been ajudicated. All efforts to locate the owner have been exhausted. I've contacted the boss and advised him that I want to purchase this British Colt OP. It will probably be a few months, but I'm the only one interested in it. So I'll see what happens. Well that took awhile didn't it?
 
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