Compact (officer's) 1911's?

[Okiecruffler]

I've pretty much decided to pick up an officer's model 1911 to carry in the summer so there's not a whole system change between seasons. But I hear the officer's model is cranky and difficult to get running right. Not a good thing in a carry gun. Anyone have some experience with these things?

 

[ugaarguy]

You might look for a Colt CCO. 4.25" Commander length slide for greater functional reliability, and the shorter Officer's model grip frame for concealment.

 

[finalcut]

I bought a Wilson Officer's size - lots of malfunctions....
Gave it back for a refund.
It'e to bad, cause I loved the slim size for carry, and allthough I think Glock, XD, H&K, & Sig are more reliable - I still love the 1911 style the most.

I now CCW IWB XD Sub .40

 

[critter]

I have both a Colt Officers Model and a Kimber Compact (same size) that I often use as a CCW. Both are 100% in function with any fodder they are fed. Always have been and I have never had to 'tweak' them to keep them running.

The Colt now has a finish of matt hard chrome. NICE and easy to clean.

 

[tegemu]

I had difficulty breaking in my Kimber Ultra Carry II, (800 rounds,) but it has been tickety-boo ever since.

 

[1911 guy]

4.25" is the shortest for reliability.

There will always be some shorties that run pretty good, but as a rule, 4.25" is the shortest you can go without giving up reliability. Many of the "big name" gunsmiths won't touch the sawed-off beasts because they don't want their name on something that causes misery to a customer.

Your best bet may indeed be to look at the CCO type models. Officers frame, but a 4.25" barrel.

 

[XavierBreath]

I agree with 1911 guy. Stick with a Commander Model for reliable reliability.

The smaller pistols can be good, or they can be dicey, you just never know. It's just a matter of the cycle timing changing too much, and everything else compensates for that.

 

[Old Fuff]

A lot of gunbuyers seem to think that you can cut 2" off the front of a 1911 style pistol, and it will work just fine. They aren't bright enough to understand that when you cut the slide and barrel back you do at least two bad things, shorten the recoil spring tunnel so that a questionable 2-or-more spring system has to be used, and the lightened slide moves at a much higher velocity. If the magazine spring isn't strong enough (and of course our buyer still wants a 7-round capacity) the cartridge won't feed fast enough to be picked up by the slide, and often noses down and then jams.

Now if you want to stake your neck on this sort of thing, go ahead.

The last thing the Old Fuff ever did (O.K. never did) was buy a defensive firearm on the basis of looks or style.

 

[Radjxf]

Listen to Old Fuff, he speaks the truth. The only little .45's I've seen run properly were some of the Colt Defenders. When you get that short, you have to delete the barrel bushing, and spring rates, dwell time, mag springs, everything physics-related has to be in perfect order to function. I don't trust "mini-autos". IF I need a tiny gun for some reason, I'll grab an old J-frame or Detective Special.

 

[Father Knows Best]

There's another choice besides the Commander -- the CCO. I prefer the CCO for concealed carry. It has the Commander length slide and barrel, so it is just as reliable as the Commander, develops the same muzzle velocity, has the same good sight radius, etc. The CCO is built on the slightly shorter Officer size frame, though, which helps cut weight and makes it easier to conceal.

My daily carry gun is the Colt Custom Shop's Gunsite CCO:


It's a dandy little 1911 -- reliable, powerful and easy to carry thanks to the slim slide and compact alloy frame. I put thin Alumagrips on it in place of the stock rosewood ones, but otherwise it is stock.

 

[ken grant]

A former friend bought an Officer's ACP new and it would not run. He sent it to a big name Gunsmith firm and they installed their barrel,bushing,recoil system,slide release,grip safety and thumb safety.
It came back and still didn't run as it should,so he sent it back again. It came back and still didn't run correctly. He got mad and sold it without telling anyone of the problems with it.
Guess who bought it(thats why he is a former friend).
I took it to see Tuner and in less than an hour while sitting at his kitchen table drinking Turbo Coffee with him using a few hand tools(some homemade) he fixed it.
We took it to the range and while he loaded mags, I ran the pistol as fast as I could. Fired about 300 rds. and never missed a lick.
Left it dirty and ran another 200 rds. the next day and still never missed a lick. I brought it home and fired another 300 rds. of mixed up ammo(including cast reloads) while still uncleaned and it still didn't miss a lick.
So, some compacts can be made to work correctly but maybe not out of the box or even from big name gunsmiths.

 

[Old Dog]

Old Fuff stated with the voice of authority that

They aren't bright enough to understand that ...

Hmm. I'm not a physicist. But, after more'n 35 years of packin' and shootin' 1911s, I guess I'd better sell off or melt down all my pistols with barrels less than 4.25 inches in length (yes, I have a few -- and have [gasp] -- even carried a couple of 'em from time to time). But, I sure don't want to be lumped in with that crowd, 'specially here with all these experts around.

 

[MICHAEL T]

I have both officer and Defender Both have been 100% and Defender is my carry as much lighter than officer. I have 2 LW Colt Commanders 1 -9mm 1- 45 but I perfer the Defender for carry.

 

[Old Fuff]

Old Dog:

By all means carry what you feel secure with, and ignore the posts from those that have had problems. While you may (or may not) understand the issues that an under 4" barreled 1911 style pistol can present, I can assure you that I do - from long and not always happy experience. Since the matter may involve protecting one's life I hope others take the points I made under consideration. If not it's their business.

 

[Old Dog]

While I'm not particularly thin-skinned, I have to admit that I did rather take offense at your direct implication that those who would buy and own short-barreled 1911s are stupid.

My experience and my research indicates that while the short barrels may create additional problems, the pistols can be made fully reliable, given the user's proper dedication to actually learning how the platform operates (something that most 1911 owners did before the advent of the internet).

I do not ignore posts from those who claim to have had problems with any particular platform, however, my experience also indicates that many in the current crop of gun-owners don't bother to learn how the pistol even works (what's "locked breech" mean?") or to maintain and use semi-auto pistols. Rather like the automobile owner who does understand the internal combustion cycle and cannot be troubled to change his own sparkplugs or oil.

 

[noops]

Here's an excerpt from Hilton Yam, who's one of the better known gunsmiths for utility, 1911 fighting guns:

First off, if you are truly serious about running a 1911, it needs to be a full sized 5" gun in .45 ACP. There certainly are any number of examples of Commander and other compact 1911s that work or can be made to work just fine, and for CCW use they can be a viable option for some users. However, take a look at the history of unit issue service 1911s – LAPD SWAT, USSOCOM, USMC Det-1, USMC MEUSOC, FBI HRT, FBI SWAT, and let’s not forget over 95 years with all the branches of the U.S. military - and you won't find ANY major units that use anything other than the original full sized gun. Why? After you field 50 or 350 guns at once and run thousands or even tens of thousands of rounds through them during training cycles, you'll figure it out. By virtue of their design, the shorter format 1911s reduce the window of functional opportunity for the magazine and slide to work together to feed, chamber, extract, and eject. This is an incontrovertible fact of life. Proper weapon setup, spring rates, and magazine maintenance are critical in running the shorter guns. Keeping after a few 1911s as a single hobbyist or aficionado is different than running a bunch of guns for a large unit. Remember that weapon down time equates to lost training and operational time. You want to minimize your maintenance issues, not increase them. Lastly, a full sized 1911 is very arguably a more efficient shooting and ballistic delivery platform than a smaller sized variant for the majority of users.

So as he said, you sure can find some good ones that work. But if you want a fighting gun that you're likely to put high round counts through, your probably better off with the longer gun.

 

[Old Fuff]

Old Dog:

Went back and read my first post again...

What i said was:

A lot of gunbuyers seem to think that you can cut 2" off the front of a 1911 style pistol, and it will work just fine. They aren't bright enough to understand that when you cut the slide and barrel back you do at least two bad things.

]

I would say that's absolutely true.

Then I went on to explain what the two bad things were:

... shorten the recoil spring tunnel so that a questionable 2-or-more spring system has to be used, and the lightened slide moves at a much higher velocity. If the magazine spring isn't strong enough (and of course our buyer still wants a 7-round capacity) the cartridge won't feed fast enough to be picked up by the slide, and often noses down and then jams.

Now my experience with "Ol' Slabsides" extends over a half century, and includes trying to build some of these guns for myself, long before they became popular. Trial and error (lots of error) taught me where the problems lay. Yes, they can be made too work, but they are always on the knife edge of failing, partly for the specific reasons I cited.

The increased possibility of a jam at a critical time give me pause when it comes to using one as a weapon, so I said:

Now if you want to stake your neck on this sort of thing, go ahead.

Which of course you as well as others can do...

But for myself:

The last thing the Old Fuff ever did (O.K. never did) was buy a defensive firearm on the basis of looks or style.

If I hurt your feelings I'm sorry, but I stand with what I said.

When one of the little guns works it's fine, but if it doesn't under some circumstances it could get you killed.

Look at Father Knows Best's CCO - it's probably the best solution.

 

[Okiecruffler]

Well Fuff, I've been respecting your opinion more than most for more than a few years now and what you've said rings true. I'm kinda new to this 1911 thing, and althought I have my Charles Daly (bad mouth it if you must) running like a top, I've never took a look into the inerds of the officer's model. I'm an old dog and new tricks come hard, so I guess I'll just stick with the 357 snubby if I need something smaller than the full sized 1911.
Didn't mean to start nothing with this post, but seems like everytime you mention a 1911 it gets some people riled up. At least no one has come out and told me what I really needed was a glock. I appriciate that.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Heck, 'cruffler, why not save yourself trouble and just get a Glock?

My own experience and observation of others who tried to get sub- 4" 1911s to work is that it is work. Short as I personally want to go is a Commander, I still have my first one from back in the 1970s. I tried the short route (starting with an early Detonics old enough to have PATENT PENDING stamped on it) and basically concluded years ago it just wasn't worth it.

OPMMV of course.

Stay Safe,

lpl/nc

 

[Okiecruffler]

Just for the record, I've had 4 glocks of various flavors, just never liked them. Ran flawless, were fairly accurate with aimed fire, just never felt right in my hand. Point shooting was out of the question. And then there's that ugly thing they have going for them.
I was also looking at the compact CZ and was almost sold on it even tho I'd have to tool up to load 40's. Then I found out about the mag problem they all seem to have.
Something to be said for the simplicity of a nice snubby wheelgun.

 

[kentucky_smith]

I've got a Rock Island Compact that runs flawlessly and is much more accurate than the Colt 1991a1 I traded off a while back.

Guess I'm in the stupid category too.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

I'm no 1911 expert (hopefully someday) so I can just tell you that my Star PD has always run without a hiccup, my dad's has also. It's almost identical in size to a Glock 19/23 aside from the grip angle difference. Shoots accurate and reliably. It's alloy framed though so you can't run a steady diet of hot loads through them. I like the fact it doesn't have a grip safety.

 

[Old Fuff]

Fact is, my very early Star PD has always run fine too, and at 50 feet it will interlock shots into one hole. They have had some problems with frames cracking, and the recoil spring system is a pain because it it next to impossible to get replacements. But it was designed to be a sub-compact in the first place - largely by Maj. George Nonte.

 

[busy_squirrel]

and you won't find ANY major units that use anything other than the original full sized gun. Why?

I can think of two reasons.

1. Small guns are harder to shoot accurately, and large organizations lose money as their training time increases. Sorry, but lots of military personnel aren't going to be training with an issued weapon in their off time. This means the more compact grips were a liability as they aren't comfortable for as many people, and increased "felt recoil" increased training time and aversion to use of the weapon.

2. NONE of those named units had a need for concealment. They can just march into situations waving guns in any direction they can justify. There's little need for a small gun if it doesn't matter if people see it. There's also little need for light weight when their weapon isn't carried on their body every moment they are on duty.

Something to think about at least.


That being said, the only 1911 that I own is a shorty.

 

[Zach S]

3.5" guns can be picky. Aside from the POS extractor Para put in my (pre PXT) Companion, and the fact its a stainless gun that will take to blueing (and rust) I havent had any issues with it. Even ditched the FLGR.

4" guns can also be picky, but they also use the 3.5" recoil springs. My 4" kimber runs like a raped ape, but the recoil spring doesnt last long (generally aroun 500 rounds or so, havent fired it in a long time). Ditched the FLGR for it too.

That said, I carry a 5" Kimber. I know the short guns will carry a little easier, and I do trust the short guns (both have been carry guns in the past), but if I can carry a 5", why carry a smaller one?