Compact vs. Full a Size for CCW

[JTQ]

I get that a full sized gun has more capacity, but as far as being a better shooter than say a sub-compact (G26 (@Pat Riot)) Officer, or Shield, at what distances are we talking about? Are you guys going to the range and doing much better with fullsized guns at distances that would be hard to justify a self defense claim, and then coming to the conclusion that you can't shoot a G26, M&P 9c, Shield, etc accurate and fast enough for self defense purposes? Are you all seeing that big of a difference at 7 to 10 yards out?

I suppose if those small guns were competitive with their full size counterparts, they would be the winners, not just in their own compact pistol class, but overall in defensive pistol competitions.

I think most of the top competitors are even picking a G34 over a G17 or a G17 over a G19. It's not just capacity, but barrel length/sight radius and grip length are generally an advantage to accurate shooting.

For the full size G34 lovers, Gabe White

http://www.gabewhitetraining.com/uspsa-for-appendix-carriers/

 

[JR24]

I get that a full sized gun has more capacity, but as far as being a better shooter than say a sub-compact (G26 (@Pat Riot)) Officer, or Shield, at what distances are we talking about? Are you guys going to the range and doing much better with fullsized guns at distances that would be hard to justify a self defense claim, and then coming to the conclusion that you can't shoot a G26, M&P 9c, Shield, etc accurate and fast enough for self defense purposes? Are you all seeing that big of a difference at 7 to 10 yards out?

Yes.

Maybe not in slow fire, but run some drills (Bill, 5x5x5, El presidente, FBI qualifier etc) and compare group size and times, the little guns fall behind for most folks pretty quickly.

Consider that if you actually need the gun, your skills will degrade from adrenaline and the situation as it is, so I figure I want to stack the deck as much as is reasonable.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

I get that a full sized gun has more capacity, but as far as being a better shooter than say a sub-compact (G26 (@Pat Riot)) Officer, or Shield, at what distances are we talking about? Are you guys going to the range and doing much better with fullsized guns at distances that would be hard to justify a self defense claim, and then coming to the conclusion that you can't shoot a G26, M&P 9c, Shield, etc accurate and fast enough for self defense purposes? Are you all seeing that big of a difference at 7 to 10 yards out?

Next time I'm at the range, I can test that for you.

I know that I shoot my P226 better than my P239, but I am now interested in trying to quantify how much...

Good questions, @Styx

 

[WisBorn]

I like to pocket carry a j frame 442 or LCP2. At times I will pack carry a 41 mag Taurus when hiking. My XDM 45 compact is the only gun I carry IWB, but not very often. My full size guns are normal for range and hunting.

 

[Styx]

Next time I'm at the range, I can test that for you.

I know that I shoot my P226 better than my P239, but I am now interested in trying to quantify how much...

Good questions, @Styx

Yea I really wonder what everyone's groups are like at 7 to 10 yards with <G19 sized guns vs G19 sized guns or larger, and if the difference would matter, e.i., having all the shots practically going through the same hole on the human body in a self defense situation. Is the goal of competition and target shooting the same goal when trying to put rounds into a body at self defense distances? Is instead of getting an 1 inch group vs a 3 or so inch group into a torso enough to basically render smaller guns not good enough for self defense?

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Yea I really wonder what everyone's groups are like at 7 to 10 yards with <G19 sized guns vs G19 sized guns or larger, and if the difference would matter, e.i., having all the shots practically going through the same hole on the human body.

I can't speak to Glocks, I'll be comparing the P239 (about the same size as a G19) with a P226.

I'll try to do a video.

The issue I am sure to have is that i carry the P239 (appendix) in a different manner than my P226 (strong side).

 

[guyfromohio]

Yea I really wonder what everyone's groups are like at 7 to 10 yards with <G19 sized guns vs G19 sized guns or larger, and if the difference would matter, e.i., having all the shots practically going through the same hole on the human body in a self defense situation. Is the goal of competition and target shooting the same goal when trying to put rounds into a body at self defense distances? Is instead of getting an 1 inch group vs a 3 or so inch group into a torso enough to basically render smaller guns not good enough for self defense?

Slow fire at 7-10 yards (where every bit of my range time is in that area), I can put the groups at about equal. Heck, I can get smaller groups with my 642 than with either my G19 or PPS. The difference comes in when putting multiple shots on target quickly. That’s where the smaller guns start to show their deficiencies. The last advanced handgun defense course had us drawing, placing four shots on target without necessarily aiming (at about 3 yards). The larger guns, for me, are far easier to control at speed. Now, know that I’m not in the “15 rounds or don’t bother” camp. I’d gladly carry my PPS and even a 5-shot snubby with confidence. I’m just on a G19 kick right now and am seeing the advantages of it.

 

[URIT]

I prefer compact models (3.5" Brl) for EDC, and I've found that the holster makes a big difference. Hence, I have a box of holsters in my gun room.

 

[IdaD]

To me the bigger factor with a larger gun vs smaller than lower recoil is my ability to get a better two handed grip. There's just more real estate and my left hand gets a much stronger purchase to help control the gun. Once you get to a Glock 19 or 2.0 Compact size I'm not sure a bigger grip helps any more because it's the real estate up near the slide that really matters on that second hand. Extra grip below your pinky is just good for holding more rounds.

 

[stchman]

I carry an LCP or a S&W M&P Shield 9. The LCP absolutely sucks to shoot, but it's just so darn concealable. The Shield is easy to get a grip on with the pinky extension on the mag.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I normally carry a G26 with extended mag OWB because it shoots like a fullsize but is more comfortable to carry.

I dont think I would shoot it quite as good as my G17 at a comp.

The main reason I dont just carry the 17 all the time is because of the barrel length when sitting. OWB at 3-4 o clock just doesn't work well sitting for me.

With the extended mags the 26 gives a fullsize grip albeit different than the 17.

I think the most important thing is confidence on the draw and shooting when talking about a EDC.

Shooting stationary drills at the house I can shoot my 26 basically the same as my 17 out to 15yds. Honestly I dont think I'd perform as well in a comp.


Heres a pic to compare the grip...

 

[Hartkopf]

To me the bigger factor with a larger gun vs smaller than lower recoil is my ability to get a better two handed grip. There's just more real estate and my left hand gets a much stronger purchase to help control the gun. Once you get to a Glock 19 or 2.0 Compact size I'm not sure a bigger grip helps any more because it's the real estate up near the slide that really matters on that second hand. Extra grip below your pinky is just good for holding more rounds.

I agree that extra grip length below the pinky won’t help but I’m on the edge with a g19. It’s just not quite long enough for me with a two handed grip but the g17 is perfect.

I don’t practice one handed as much as I should but I’ve read a huge amount of actual shootings end up one handed. This is the reason I don’t want anything to do with a g26 or any other stubby grip. Two fingers holding a gun during high stress rapid fire? None for me!

 

[tomrkba]

Okay, so it’s been a while since I carried on a regular basis. (No lectures please - I’ve seen the error of my ways!). I just bought a new AIWB holster for my Smith and Wesson M&P 9C. After some practice, I wasn’t happy with the ability to get a good grip on the draw. So I decided to give my full-size M&P 9 a try. It was much easier to get a good grip, and the difference in concealment doesn’t seem to be too great.

I just wondered how many others find a full size pistol a better CCW choice. It may be a little harder to conceal, but to me it’s more important to have a solid, smooth draw stroke. The last thing I want to do is fumble the draw!!

For the record, I’m 6 ft and about 220...so the “spare tire” is there and does get in the way. But even so, I don’t find the full size prints much more (if at all) compared to the compact.

Anyway, just a topic for discussion. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer...I just wondered how many others choose to carry full size.

If you cannot grip the gun on the draw from the appendix position, then the problem is the holster. You need to adjust it such that it sits higher. A good setting to start with is placing the frontstrap approximately one index finger width above the top of the belt. If the holster cannot be adjusted, then you need a different holster.

For AIWB, you should look for holsters that have at least 1/4" between the holes and likely 3/4" or more of overall vertical adjustment. You need to be able to move it up and down and change the cant forward and back. I have found that a slight reverse cant is necessary for comfort if the slide is long enough. Also consider getting a holster with a wedge and wing. These two items assist in hiding the grip and back of slide area for striker fired guns.

As for gun size, the primary limiting factor for appendix carry is comfort. Slide/barrel length along with the amount of holster material under the barrel back to the trigger guard affects comfort. Pressure on the body can cause hot spots or just general annoyance.

The second important factor is grip length. It is not primary and is mitigated by the wing, holster cant, holster tilt from the wedge, holster ride height, stiffness of belt, holster loop placement, and looseness of your shirt. The wing angles the grip more along the contour of the body. Cant can tilt both the rear of the slide and the grip to cause printing. In the case of the rear of slide, it'll roll outward a little bit or be forward of the contour. For example, the outer point of the slide on a Glock will print slightly. The back corner of the magazine can also print if too high. Ride height is obvious and it's a give and take between ability to get a grip and avoiding printing. A stiff belt is needed; if it bends a bit, the front strap of the gun can make contact with the belt and reduce your ability to achieve a grip. Loop placement can also affect whether or not the frontstrap rides on the belt (it may shift over time as you move). Finally, your shirt should be loose enough to cover the gun. It should be cut straight from the armpits; tapered gets too tight and the gun prints.

Finally, placement in relation to the contour of the body matters. Some guns can be moved outward, while others must be closer to the centerline. Comfort and concealment may be at odds here depending upon the shape of your gun and holster attributes.

 

[.38 Special]

I am a revolver man, and I find that I do much better - especially under stress - with a 4" barrel and good sights. I can hit quickly and reliably with a snub out to 7 yards or so, but over the past year a change in my training has caused me to decide that I am probably not going to try to draw during a contact-distance fight. Anything beyond close quarters (around 7 yards, as far as I am concerned) means that when I do draw, I am drawing an "iffy" weapon, at least for my abilities with it. (And hopefully, if I manage to earn 7 yards between me and the attacker, I can just run like hell and not have to deal with the potentially disastrous consequences of a gunfight.)

I also have become more concerned with the "Bad guy walks into the room with a rifle" scenario, which seems to be a semi-regular thing these days. Fighting that fight with a handgun is already a lousy option. Fighting it with a snub is completely outside of my skill set.

So I put up with a full-size carry gun and continue to hope I never need it.

 

[tomrkba]

I am a revolver man, and I find that I do much better - especially under stress - with a 4" barrel and good sights. I can hit quickly and reliably with a snub out to 7 yards or so, but over the past year a change in my training has caused me to decide that I am probably not going to try to draw during a contact-distance fight. Anything beyond close quarters (around 7 yards, as far as I am concerned) means that when I do draw, I am drawing an "iffy" weapon, at least for my abilities with it. (And hopefully, if I manage to earn 7 yards between me and the attacker, I can just run like hell and not have to deal with the potentially disastrous consequences of a gunfight.)

I also have become more concerned with the "Bad guy walks into the room with a rifle" scenario, which seems to be a semi-regular thing these days. Fighting that fight with a handgun is already a lousy option. Fighting it with a snub is completely outside of my skill set.

So I put up with a full-size carry gun and continue to hope I never need it.

You need to take Shiv Works' ECQC class. https://shivworks.com/extreme-close-quarter-concepts/

 

[.38 Special]

You need to take Shiv Works' ECQC class. https://shivworks.com/extreme-close-quarter-concepts/

It is exactly that sort of close-quarters force-on-force training (guns, knives, and hand-to-hand) that made me realize that trying to produce a gun during a close-range fight is often a terrible idea.

<edit> Just for what it is worth, I am deeply impressed by ShivWorks and hope to get some training from them. I am fortunate to have similar training available to me locally and it has radically altered my opinions on self-defense with firearms.

 

[peacemaker45]

There have been times, even long periods of time, when I've carried a P32 in my pocket as primary. The last year or so, I've been back to a full size.

It seems to me that once you make the big switch from the pocket to the belt, most of the infrastructure is already in place to carry a full size. It's only barely harder, so why not?

 

[Hangingrock]

As an example capacity S&W MP9 (17) Rds - MP9C (12) Rds and Shield (8) Rds all (9x19mm) There is the concept of at least (10) Rd being the minimum capacity due to the situation of multiple attackers concept being floated by certain writers in firearms publications. Tom Givens briefly eluded to it in his latest book Concealed Carry Class The ABCs Of Self-Defense Tools And Tactics. Its also mentioned in other publications like NRA Shooting Illustrated publication Etc..-Etc.

Personally my EDC is a Shield (9x19mm) Yes it falls short of the (10) Minimum Capacity Concept with a capacity of (8+1) capacity of (9) and I don't have a Optic Sight mounted either.

With that said I have my own range. I've shot (in my lifetime) enough Bullseye at 25&50-Yards to fill multiple 55gal drums with the empties but that's not the distance I shoot the S&W Shield 9X19mm which is 3&10Yds. Its accuracy is more than adequate for the intended purpose.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

There is the concept of at least (10) Rd being the minimum capacity due to the situation of multiple attackers concept being floated by certain writers in firearms publications. Tom Givens briefly eluded to it in his latest book Concealed Carry Class The ABCs Of Self-Defense Tools And Tactics. Its also mentioned in other publications like NRA Shooting Illustrated publication Etc..-Etc.

The concept was also "floated" by the two crackheads who tried to rob me

 

[sparkyfender]

The older I get, it seems to more I gravitate to bigger handguns.

I carried subcompacts for years, slowly realized I just didn't shoot them that well, so I went to larger formats. Right now I enjoy carrying a CZ75B, Beretta 92s, and a Hi Power a lot. I shoot them so much better, even at close ranges, I only carry a small gun when I absolutely have to. {rare}

Retired now, and have never been a fashion plate, so I wear what I want as far as concealment goes. I have found with an IWB holster and suspenders, I can carry and hide just about anything I want. Carrying an old school S&W K frame revolver inside the waistband today, easier than it sounds.

 

[94045]

Yes.

Maybe not in slow fire, but run some drills (Bill, 5x5x5, El presidente, FBI qualifier etc) and compare group size and times, the little guns fall behind for most folks pretty quickly.

Consider that if you actually need the gun, your skills will degrade from adrenaline and the situation as it is, so I figure I want to stack the deck as much as is reasonable.

Edit: I concur!



That's 7 Rounds at 7 Yards into 0.75" with an LCP with Carry Ammo. I can't do much better with anything else. Now try it with 0.2-0.3 Second Splits and my 5 Yard LCP Groups are not any better than my 15 Yard TP9SF Groups. Which do you think more closely simulates the typical defensive shooting. Several seconds between rounds or 3 to 5 rounds per second?

 

[JR24]

View attachment 893476

That's 7 Rounds at 7 Yards into 0.75" with an LCP with Carry Ammo. I can't do much better with anything else. Now try it with 0.2-0.3 Second Splits and my 5 Yard LCP Groups are not any better than my 15 Yard TP9SF Groups. Which do you think more closely simulates the typical defensive shooting. Several seconds between rounds or 3 to 5 rounds per second?

That's pretty much what I was saying...

 

[94045]

That's pretty much what I was saying...

Sorry, Should have put, "I concur".
I didn't intend to imply I disagreed.

 

[MikeInOr]

I have many friends that will ONLY carry full sized pistols and shame me for my sub compacts, pocket guns and mouse guns. At any random time you are almost assured to find that I am carrying a gun, most likely a little gun. At any random time my full size gun toting buddies are almost assuredly NOT going to have ANY gun on them. I will take a .32 in my pocket over a 1911 on the dresser any day!

I can't remember the last time I left the house without a gun on me.

I have a buddy that will only carry a 1911... but pretty much only carries when he is riding his hog. ...he sold his Harley over 10 years ago. LOL!

 

[JR24]

Sorry, Should have put, "I concur".
I didn't intend to imply I disagreed.

Ah, great. Same page then!