Considerations carrying on commercial aircraft

[GRB]

Somewhere in another thread, we were discussing an officer who forgot her handgun in the rest room while on a prisoner escort at an airport. We got sidetracked a bit into whether or not law enforcement officers, civilians or anyone should carry on an aircraft. I thought it might be nice to consider such in a separate thread to allow the other thread to stay more on topic.

The thing about carrying on a commercial passenger aircraft has me wondering how many police officers are trained to actually use their weapon on a plane if need be. (I actually know the answer to this but am not sure I can say it in a public forum, but it is something for you to wonder about.) Then again, I am not aware of the extent to which each officer trains if in fact all are so trained. As far as non-law enforcement types go, are any of you trained to carry and shoot aboard a commercial aircraft? There are certain things you want to be certain not to shoot; I will not go into the particulars because of restrictions placed on me at work but, I imagine you guys might be able to figure out what you really don't want to hit, then again maybe not. Seriously, I don't think anyone who has not been trained to some fair extent, particularly to carry and shoot on aircraft, should be carrying on aircraft - that includes law enforcement officers and non-LEOs. Of course if you are properly trained then go for it when allowed to by law - which I believe should be all of the time for anyone so trained, of course at the fancy of the pilot who has the right to prevent anyone to board his/her plane.

In addition, there are also other considerations, here are only some of them:

Where do you ask to be seated before you board the plane - would you have a preference? How do you carry while flying? What are the preferred carry methods by those in the know with lots of experience and training relative to carrying on commercial flights? If you were armed on a commercial flight and terrorists actually tried to take over the cockpit and gain control, how would you go about shooting? Would you shoot? Would there be other options to shooting? Would your preferred seating arrangements matter now that the SHTF? What justifications legal or otherwise would you take into mind before drawing and firing? What is considered legal justification to use deadly force on an aircraft - is it the same as in a street situation? For example if a guy is bashing away on the cockpit door and actually making headway at breaking into the cockpit, would you be justified in using deadly force to stop him? In any scenario, what would you aim at as you shot - would it be center of mass, head shots, groin shots or something else? If you wounded a terrorist and he was down and apparently no longer a threat but still alive, would you shoot him again with the absolute intent to kill him? What particular tactical moves would you make? Would you try to gain control of the situation at any particular spot in the aircraft? How close would you get to your assailants before shooting? Would you shoot from your seat? How do you draw when seated - do holster choice or seat choice effect how you draw? Would you draw your weapon in stealth mode and then fire or would you jump up as you drew and then fired? What if anything would you use for cover or concealment? Would you bother to use cover and or concealment? How would you hold your firearm? How would you move through the pandemonium on the plane? How would you identify yourself to other passengers so as not to be overcome by them maybe thinking you are one of the terrorists? How would you identify the terrorists? Would you wait until you knew all of the threats before acting? Would you know if there were other armed individuals on the aircraft - legal ones? What would you do to identify the Federal Air Marshals or other legally armed people? Would you take things into your own hands before being asked to assist the crew or the armed law enforcement officers on the plane? What would you do if some guy yelled out he had a bomb and he then held up something that looked enough like a bomb to convince you that it was either put up or die? Did you distinguish the fact that the person or people making the commotion were actually terrorists intent on taking over the plane as opposed to someone who has mental problems and his family trying to calm him down? Does it make a difference if the guy is a mental case - do you shoot him if he goes for the cockpit? What would you do if the pilot, who is armed with a pistol, killed the rest of the flight crew and hijacked the plane himself? What would you do if the terrorists successfully got into the cockpit and killed the crew leaving one of them as the only person left capable of flying the plane? Would you knowingly and purposefully jeopardize the lives of all aboard that plane in order to stop the terrorists - what I am asking is would you, knowing your actions would in all likelihood result in killing everyone aboard the plane, still try to stop the terrorists? In the event of any hijacking, would you just be the legendary Wyatt Earp or, or Corbin Dallas, or Mad Max and start blasting and let God sort them out not caring about the consequences? (The last question is in no way the same as the one directly previous to it.)

I can say without a doubt that carrying and shooting while on a commercial aircraft poses a whole new set of considerations for you to mull before you ever carry on an aircraft with the possibility of your using your gun to stop a terrorist takeover?

Of course I don't expect anyone to answer all of the above but you can if you want to; I just throw these things out as considerations. I cannot and will not tell you if your actions would be right or wrong as I am restricted by my job from doing so. I will give you one more thing to consider - try answering just this one correctly. It is not a hard question but I am willing to bet that while many may get it right, many of you also will get it wrong. Answer it for yourselves, I’ll try to remember to post the correct answer later on, I am pretty sure this one would be ok for me to give an answer to, if I forget, someone remind me please.

Here it is:

You are in your seat on the plane, your hair stands up on your neck (or whatever), you sense something wrong or actually see something very bad happening - heck it IS an actual hijacking, some guy behind you is yelling out something about praise be to some god and is stabbing people. What is the first thing you do after you notice something bad happening while you are armed on a commercial flight?
All the best,
Glenn B

 

[trickyasafox]

if someone is hijacking the plane then my thought is they are gonna do the same thing that happened before. everyone is already dead, they just don't know it yet. if thats the case they are gonna have to stab me to keep me from fighting to save my life and the lives of those around me.

 

[JamisJockey]

if someone is hijacking the plane then my thought is they are gonna do the same thing that happened before. everyone is already dead, they just don't know it yet. if thats the case they are gonna have to stab me to keep me from fighting to save my life and the lives of those around me.

+1
And I would expect any LEO to steop up to the plate in this scenerio.

 

[TallPine]

I imagine you guys might be able to figure out what you really don't want to hit, then again maybe not.

The pilot and co-pilot would be good things not to hit, for starters.

 

[MikeIsaj]

+1 on not shooting the flight crew. Also avoid anything above the overhead storage bins. Anywhere below the bins is probably okay. The hydraulics and critical electrical systems are all at the top of the fuselage or along the belly, protected by your baggage. And contrary to what many believe, a bullet hole in the fuselage is not going to cause a decompresion, explosive or otherwise. The biggest threat in shooting in an airplane is hitting an innocent or causing a general panic.

All this is gained from alking to pilots of various aircraft.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

As far as non-law enforcement types go, are any of you trained to carry and shoot aboard a commercial aircraft? There are certain things you want to be certain not to shoot; I will not go into the particulars because of restrictions placed on me at work but, I imagine you guys might be able to figure out what you really don't want to hit, then again maybe not.

You mean besides the pilot and the copilot?

Roger that. What's your point? I think anyone should be allowed to carry, anywhere. That's what the Constitution says I have a right to do.

 

[Standing Wolf]

if someone is hijacking the plane then my thought is they are gonna do the same thing that happened before. everyone is already dead, they just don't know it yet. if thats the case they are gonna have to stab me to keep me from fighting to save my life and the lives of those around me.

Which probably explains why no aircraft have been hijacked over America since September 11, 2001. It's got nothing to do with the overpaid, under-worked T.S.A. and everything to do with us.

 

[Manedwolf]

>>What would you do if the terrorists successfully got into the cockpit and killed the crew leaving one of them as the only person left capable of flying the plane? Would you knowingly and purposefully jeopardize the lives of all aboard that plane in order to stop the terrorists

First, shoot the damned terrorist. That doesn't mean you're going to lose the plane. If the pilot and copilot were incapacitated, on any modern airliner, you'd take the following steps as a layman non-pilot. And no, it's not dramatic "I can hold it" belly landings like a movie, you just need to be told how to set the autopilot and ILS. So:

1. Sit down. Unless the plane is already in a dive or such, it will want to stay level. One hand on the controls will keep it that way, (Yoke on Boeings and many others, sidestick on Airbuses) just don't go yanking it all over the place. If you need to pull it back to level, take it slow and easy. The throttles are on the center console. If you are trying to pull back up and hear a horn of any kind, (stall warning, some have computer voices), or if the yoke starts "shaking" as another form of warning, increase the throttles until you can return to level flight. And no, you are NOT going to be able to land an airliner or even fly yourself, but...all modern airliners, pretty much, can land themselves. Don't even try, you'd be more likely to overcontrol and lose it, or throw it around enough to rip off something important. (like the tail of that Airbus over Queens.) Pilots have years of training for a reason!

2. Pick up the headset or microphone, call a mayday, say what happened, the hijackers have been neutralized, whatever, any frequency, you don't need to know what you're doing. Someone will route you to the right frequency to talk to a controller and then likely to someone who will tell you want to do. Just make sure you find the button to key the mike, shouldn't be a difficult thing to do. If you can't figure out the radio, get someone to turn on their cellphone and try that for emergeny personnel for more instructions..they'll often work just fine in the air.

3. They'll tell you how to set two systems. One, the autopilot, which should already have the course to the destination airport. If it's on, great, you're already going there. If it's not, they'll tell you how to turn it on, and if necessary, how to select a new destination.

4. Next is something most people don't know airliners have...the Instrument Landing System, or ILS. Major airports have a series of antennas at the end of the runway, and the plane can make a full three-point landing all by itself, going from autopilot to this. It's often used in zero-visibility weather. Once the ILS is set, the plane should proceed to its destination airport, turn onto final approach, and head for the runway. The controllers will have already cleared the pattern for your approach, so you don't need to do anything but sit back till it lands. You'll likely see emergency vehicles near the runway. DON'T touch the yoke or rudder pedals..the plane is flying itself, and some autopilots can be set to disengage in response to control input. The landing gear ought to deploy itself, and you should see lights come on somewhere on the console showing that. If you don't, ask your on-radio guide what to check.

5. You know what a touchdown sounds like. Back wheels first, then nosegear. Once you hear that nosegear...the plane might throttle back itself, or if it's older, you need to SLOW IT DOWN. How to do this? On some planes, grab the throttles, all of them, pull them all the way back, then over a 'hump' at the zero position and back further, which will engage the thrust reversers, either clamshells or side panels on the engines, slowing you down.

6. That should slow you with runway to spare. If it doesn't on its own, the brakes are often at the toe of the rudder pedals. DON'T use them when the plane is still going fast.

7. Once the aircraft comes to a complete halt, you don't know how to shut it down, so don't even try. DO move the throttles back to the neutral position, which will run the engines at idle and let it be safe for rescue personnel to board the plane...they'll shut it down. Flight attendants, with their training, will likely already be popping the doors.

So there you go. A loss of crew in a firefight doesn't need to mean loss of the aircraft and everyone aboard.

 

[GRB]

Hawkmoon,

You do not understand the constitution at all if you believe the right is to carry anywhere you please at any time. Rights as granted by the constitution apply to how the government can or cannot effect you. Private concerns can tell you to shove the 2nd where the sun does not shine, you have no right to carry on anyone's private property at any time unless the owner of the property grants you that privilege on his property or unless the law says you can (which the Bill of Rights does not). It is a good thing to remember but, of course, you can choose to disregard it at your own peril. You also apparently have no comprehension of what constitutes a right under the Constitution of the US or the Bill of Rights but, I am not here to argue about rights, I was here to discuss the topic of my thread. If you want to talk rights, let's do it in a thread that you start. Just for the record though - I think everyone should be allowed to carry, just about anywhere at just about any time but it (the law) does have its restrictions and I follow the law in that regard.

I do wonder what was your point? I think you are simply trying to be a troll. The point of this discussion was never about your right to carry at all. It was about considerations to mull over before you decide to carry, then draw then shoot on a commercial passenger aircraft. Just because you have a right to keep and bear arms does not mean that you have to keep and bear arms at every momemnt of every day in every little thing that you do - does it? I would think that even yyou could think of times when it may be inappropriate to carry or shoot a firearm. You have to use your noggin to figure when it is or is not appropriate to do so. So, even if your interpretation of the right was the absolute, that would not mean that someone should not be trained in how to use a firearm or when and where to use it. I certainly don't need armed fools, or worse, flying with me - do you?

You mean besides the pilot and the copilot?

To answer your question - yes I do mean besides the pilot and copilot! One person has already shown his ignorance about where it is safe to shoot on an aircraft in one of the previous posts in this thread regarding hydraulic lines. I happen to know for a fact that the information he gave is often incorrect as it applies to commercial passenger aircraft. In addition while a bullet may not cause decompression through the fuselage, what would one or two through a window do? Would this cause the atmosphere inside the aircraft to decompress? Better yet, if shooting starts - what will the pilot do? Would you be prepared for it? Would you secure your firearm in some manner prior to the pilot doing his thing?

My point was that there are a lot of things to consider before you foolishly go off like some modern day Don Quixote to look for dragons to slay aboard commercial aircraft just because you consider yourself the Lone Ranger who will save the day like Bruce Willis in some silly movie. If someone wields a pistol and starts shooting on an aircraft, that person should know what he/she is doing before doing it. Otherwise the person who does so may screw things up royally resulting in the deaths of hundreds of innocents when such could have been avoided. My point is you should be responsible in your thoughts and actions before you do something otherwise it could be absolutely foolhardy and potentially lethal to innocents. In other words don’t be ignorant but instead educate yourself in the way to properly address the situation at hand into which you have placed yourself as an armed potential warrior. If you have a problem with that, then morally and ethically and logically - you should not be carrying at all because you lack the maturity and forethought to do so responsibly regardless of any right that you may exercise by carrying. To do so would be negligent on your part, possibly criminally so. Why not just take the time to get the proper training instead of trying to start some silly right to carry argument that was not relative to this discussion in the first place? Why not do it right instead of running like a bull through a china shop except, in this case the china would be your fellow passengers, they cannot be replaced as can be precious china.

All the best,
Glenn B

 

[Manedwolf]

In addition while a bullet may not cause decompression through the fuselage, what would one or two through a window do? Would this cause the atmosphere inside the aircraft to decompress?/QUOTE]

No. It would put two small holes, maybe, in the rather thick outer Lexan window. You can't shoot out one of those windows. The most you'd do is cause an annoying whistle.

It would take a fuselage breach the size of an aircraft door to catastrophically decompress a modern airliner. Air loss from bullet holes would be negligable, and the air system's outflow vent (which is already a "hole in the aircraft") would simply and automatically close a bit more to compensate for any loss caused by the new holes.

As long as the engines are running, rarified outside air is being compressed, cooled, and delivered to the cabin to maintain necessary pressures and oxygen levels, and there's quite a margin for increase to maintain those levels if needed.

BTW, as far as I know from mention in various articles, sky marshalls have been using Glasers or something similar that will fragment on contact with a hard surface, so as not to endanger aircraft control systems.

 

[GRB]

Mandewolf,

I like your knowledgeable reply (I am assuming you konw of what you speak). It would be great if everyone knew this would it not? I am not saying don't shoot the terrorists, I most likely would shoot them and it would not matter if I could land the plane or not so long as I could control it long enough to get it away from a populated area.

As for your answer about the windows - you are wrong. I have seen them shot through and out before. Please bear in mind I never initially brought up decompression, someone else did, probably thinking I had it in mind. I did not have that in mind; instead, I had a list of considerations in mind for people to think over. Shooting into various areas of the aircraft could certainly be a concern. It is certainly a concern for those who routinely fly armed on aircraft.

As long as the engines are running, rarified outside air is being compressed, cooled, and delivered to the cabin to maintain necessary pressures...

This is not necessarily so and even with engines running perfectly there could well be a rapid decompression inside the aircraft. Think about it. I can almost assure you in the event of a terrorist attempt to take over a commercial aircraft - post 9/11 - rapid decompression would take place. I will not confirm or deny how it would happen, but you can just about bet dollars to donuts it will happen.
As to what you have read in magazines about Glasers, I think I am not at liberty to tell you what I or others actually carried while flying as a Federal Air Marshal but I will tell you, the magazine was wrong so don't bet your life on it.

All the best,
GB

 

[GRB]

What is the first thing you do after you notice something bad happening while you are armed on a commercial flight?

No takers yet? I am a bit surprised after some of the other detailed answers. Not a trick question either or a troll, just a really simple but very important thing to do. Since it would be the first thing to do once you relaized trouble was afoot, I am surprised no one has given it a shot.

 

[MikeIsaj]

even with engines running perfectly there could well be a rapid decompression inside the aircraft. Think about it. I can almost assure you in the event of a terrorist attempt to take over a commercial aircraft - post 9/11 - rapid decompression would take place. I will not confirm or deny how it would happen, but you can just about bet dollars to donuts it will happen.

I am going to assume you are insinuating that the pilot would intentionally decompress the cabin. This would be a very foolish idea, a very dangerous idea for all onboard, and not the best way to disrupt a hijacking.

Brain damage happens from lack of oxygen shortly after decompression unless you go on oxygen, and the oxygen masks automatically deploy in a decompression. I'm not even sure if you can intentionally decompress a commercial airplane. Whatever ou do to the hijackers, you also do to the passengers. Would you want to be responsible for a plane load of brain damaged passengers?

Severe maneuvering would be a better alternative. All this assumes the pilot would have adequate warning to do anything. It would be foolish to think our enemies aren't thinking of these things also. If they even use aircraft in the next attack, it won't be in the way they did last time. They are fanatics and they are evil, they are not stupid.

 

[GRB]

What would be foolish during a hijacking attempt would be to allow the terrorists into the flight deck. Anything to stop them from using the aircraft as a guided missle would be considered by the pilot. I cannot say outright what I have been told some of them plan to do but the measures taken will be drastic to avoid even more drastic consequences such as a repeat of 9/11. Do you think a pilot and copilot would not consider rapid decompression of the passenger cabin (including flight cabin) when they would have on oxygen masks and since they know, that should there aircraft be hijacked and they not respond properly they stand a very sstrong chance of being shot down by our military. While the enemy is not stupid, they will again hijack an aircraft if they think it feasible. Remember they do not care if they die doing it, so long as they take down the aircraft and kill all of the so called infidels aboard, and those who send them to die don't give a crusty crap about them, they are the walking dead. Let me correct myself, maybe they are stupid, at least the ones who blow themselves up or otherwise commit a suicide/homicide act - there just aren't that many virgins anywhere anymore, not even in paradise. More such attempts to hijack aircraft have been planned, though not carried out. These were well documented and the info is not classified as far as I am aware as I remember reading some of it in the daily news rags. These things are, as I said in my original post, considerations before flying armed.

Even if, as you suggested, a pilot took severe maneuvers as some may well plan to do this is not practical with many commercial passenger aircraft as they were not made to do so and may fail in flight while trying, according to many pilots and aircraft engineers and mechanics to whom I have spoken. Yet, if it was done, would you be ready for such. These are real considerations when flying armed if you plan to use your weapon to defend the aircraft and passengers. Would you know the code a pilot might give before going into such a maneuver, would you know how to get on the horn to let the pilot now all is under control to avoid him pulling one? Your suggestion brings up even more considerations.

Carrying a firearm on a plane is one thing with many considerations to ponder. Using it in defense of the crew and aircraft is another with many more things to think about. Compare it to a more likely scenario. I have a right to keep and bear arms, yet you would think me a dangerous fool if you saw me at the range several times pointing my guns at other people, looking down the barrel, shooting in an unsafe direction, walking around with my finger on the trigger with the action closed, and so forth. Would you tell me off? Maybe if I pointed it at you that is just what you would do. I would still have a right to tell you to shove off and to keep and bear arms regardless of my lack of respect for others and my lack of attention to gun safety rules but, I bet you would not like what I was doing and maybe you would try to get me kicked off of the range. Almost the same thing here. I do not like the fact that some cavalier macho men in think they are going to board an aircraft while armed, with no special training, and then stop a hijacking in progress while saving the day for all involved like Commando Cody would do. It may happen by sheer arsed luck but it is ludicrous for anyone to think it would be the norm; just as it is less than responsible and potentially extremely dangerous and maybe even criminally negligent to try to play air marshal without at least some training specifically geared toward flying armed. Again, let me stress, I am not saying it should not be the norm for people to carry on an aircraft but, they should be responsible about it. They should take into consideration the specific nature of using firearms on an aircraft, the specific nature of the threats that might come up on an aircraft, and the specifics of most if not all of the considerations already mentioned. Any rational consideration of such would have, in my opinion, any logical person arrive at the conclusion that they would need to do their homework before flying armed.

All the best,
GB

 

[Dr.Rob]

I have a buddy that is a Federal Air Marshall... they train like crazy shooting thousands and thousands of rounds... their motto is 'don't miss'.

I wouldn't even want to try opening fire on a crowded plane, though I've done it in an IDPA stage... there is no "cover" as airline seats are not bulletproof... you have seriously little time to engage multiple targets that cannot be completely seen... it's a seriously cramped environment requiring specialized training.

The days of fanatics with box cutters taking over a plane are over. I'd gladly beat someone with a lap top to prevent another 9-11, and I don't think I'm alone in that thought.

 

[Skyviking]

I fail to see the point of this discussion. Active-duty LEOs who are permitted to carry on board commercial airliners must have received FAA-certified training in order to do so. Anyone else - including retired FAMs, FFDOs, or federal LEOs can't, and any retired FAM, FFDO, or LEO's discussion of the methods and tactics used to thwart hijackings is, at best, ill-considered.

If my dog has any more comments I'll pass them on, but failing that, I guess I'll go back to sleep.

Regards,
Andy

 

[TrapdoorBilly]

+1

 

[pax]

First thing? Unbuckle.

pax

 

[twency]

What is the first thing you do after you notice something bad happening while you are armed on a commercial flight?

Ok, just for amusement sake, I'll bite.

Don't give away the fact that you're armed until you've fully assessed the situation, and are able to take action as swiftly and directly as possible?


On the other hand, how about a few options for if you aren't armed under the same circumstances (the ridiculous are deliberately undifferentiated from the normal and the sublime):

1.) Pray

2.) Try to look as inconspicuous as possible

3.) Dial 911 on personal cell phone

4.) Shout "We're all gonna die!"

5.) Shout "Let's roll!"

6.) Shout "Allahu Akbar!"

7.) Put on/tighten seat belt in anticipation of sudden aircraft movements

8.) Remove seat belt in anticipation of taking action

9.) Start figuring out what can be used as an improvised weapon (if you haven't already been doing this)

10.) Start writing Last Will and Testament on cocktail napkin

11.) Carefully examine other passengers to see if any seem unsurprised, or otherwise suggest they might be in on the hijacking, but haven't yet revealed themselves

12.) Say to the person next to you: "Huh, I didn't see that coming, did you?"

13.) Say to the person next to you: "Hold me." (This depends entirely on the person next to you, of course.)

14.) Try to duck as low as possible, to avoid low-flying projectiles

_________________
-twency

edit: I see pax beat me to it on one of mine.

 

[MikeIsaj]

While the enemy is not stupid, they will again hijack an aircraft if they think it feasible

Glenn, I would never argue a training question with you because you have proven your expertise to me. I will argue terrorism because I have a little experience with that. Terrorists usually go for soft targets. Aircraft are no longer soft targets, making them unlikely targets. I'll never say never, but if you want a good idea what the next venue will likely be, look around. Where are there large numbers of people with good exposure and low defenses? That's your target! It's good to note too that in this picture when you harden one target, you soften all the rest.

Even if, as you suggested, a pilot took severe maneuvers as some may well plan to do this is not practical with many commercial passenger aircraft as they were not made to do so and may fail in flight

I'm not suggesting barrel rolls or immelmans. A series of thirty degree rolls will knock you off your feet and are well within airframe safety parameters. Any quick and random movements incorporating all three axis of movement will knock you off balance and make you motion sick in short order. Cut power and a heavy pull back on the yoke will cause a stall and temporarily cancel gravity, followed by a drastic pitch down and sudden restoration of said gravity. Follow that with a 45 degree steep turn at full power and you will introduce the cabin to a 2g force, without compromising airworthiness. Cut the lights while doing this at night and there will quickly be a shortage of barf bags on that flight.

 

[JMusic]

Glenn I'll take a shot at your question. The First thing you do is ensure your own safety. Without that you cannot help anyone else. You pose some interesting senerio's. Shooting in my opinion would be last resort. If you were or infact are an Air Marshal then you know how many are actually in the air at one time. You could assume you and maybe the pilots are the only one's armed except the Hijackers. No easy answers here, the safest places to shoot is into the hijackers ass's but again that should only be done after you have Id'd all involved and have come to the conclusion that there is no other option. Use time to your advantage to try to understand the situation. I do not believe though I would allow myself to be disarmed. Infact I know that would not happen, but I would stay as stealthy as I could until that situation came to fruation. Great thread. I'm a new member to this and am having a ball talking to fellow American's.

 

[svtruth]

Cool Challenge

Before I read any responses, or make any, this is a great question!

 

[GRB]

MikeIsaj,


Maybe on some aircraft the flight crew would take such maneuvers. I met some who claimed they would, others who say they would not because of bad things that would potentially happen and others who had no real plan. If they would do it, fine by me - that would be great and; it would go back to my original post in this thread as a consideration for those who think they are going to fly armed and then somehow stop a possible terrorist attack on an aircraft. That is the whole point of this thread - to consider if you are well trained enough to actually fly armed and in essence, actually use your firearm for anything other than a paperweight while on the aircraft.

JMusic,

Not the first thing to do, in fact there is no way to ensure your safety if something like a hijacking attempt occurs except maybe to open the door and jump out with a parachute attached to your person very securely. There is however, one very simple thing that you would need to do if in your seat (as the original question asked) that only one person has thought of yet. It is a very important yet, a very simple and basic step to take when flying armed in the event of any situation that develops in which you may have to act. It could also likely be the first step you would take while traveling in other conveyances. It is not a state secret, it is something I have been trained to do since I started shooting as an LEO as it applies to possibly having to take action from a conveyance. It is almost a common sense thing yet, some may overlook it in the nervousness of a situation; of course there are always exceptions so at times there may be no time to do it first. One person has the right answer, you guys look and figure who.


Twency,

Praying comes in handy for all in such a situation but, if you are flying armed or unarmed, it may be better to pray before you fly. Take actions necessary to eliminate the threat, then pray again a prayer of thanks when you have succeeded. Don't pray when the SHTF, keep focussed on the necessary actions you must take.

Skydiving,

No one, well not me anyhow, is discussing classified, non-classified or, even simply special tactics used by Federal Air Marshals or other armed LEOs aboard aircraft. This indeed would be ill advised. That is why I have been careful to make it plain that I will not do so yet; I can throw out considerations for you all to think over before ever flying armed, on a commercial passenger flight, if the opportunity presents itself. I can very plainly and openly discuuss the fact that there is a multitude of considerations for flying armed as opposed to going to the corner grocery armed to buy your dog some puppy uppers or doggie downers. At the risk of awakening you or your doggie; it was nice to see you are getting such a good amount of sleep because of this thread. If your dog does have a comment please share it with us, something tells me your dog would have something more interesting to say than what you just wrote even if it was only by way of his lifting his leg to leave his mark. As for more comments from you, I am always willing to read them and reply yet; one can only hope you will emulate Rip Van Winkle. Sweet dreams.


To All Who Are Participating In This Thread,

There was a point to this thread, of course it was not meant for armchair trollers who would rather insult and feign sleep; it was meant for those who really are considering flying armed if ever they can and; I realize some of you would like to do so. The point basically is that there are many considerations to mull over and, there are plenty of new things for which to train. Flying armed is a rather unique situation for the armed individual. You cannot take for granted that because you are ready to shoot on the ground, you are also ready to shoot inside of an aircraft whether it is on the ground or in flight. It really is a whole new arena and if you are taking action against a terrorist attack on board an a/c it just adds more about which to learn before you attempt it.

I am happy the rest of you seem to be enjoying the discussion.

Best regards,
Glenn B

 

[SkyDaver]

Ok, just for amusement sake, I'll bite.

Don't give away the fact that you're armed until you've fully assessed the situation, and are able to take action as swiftly and directly as possible?

I'd go with that one.

Glenn, as far as a blowout of windows, I would not be terribly concerned.

Mythbusters did an episode on this that I thought was very well done. If a window blows out (and a gunshot was not enough to reliably cause this) the person next to the window might get injured a little if they're not buckled in, but no one is going to get sucked out. A MD-80 pilot told me that the outlet valve for the pressurization system is bigger than a window, and that the system could even keep up with the loss of a window.

Also, in a depressurization event, SOP is to get down FAST. The plane will get down to 10,000 feet much more quickly than the fuselage can depressurize to ambient (in the event of a window size blowout) In the event of a catastrophic blowout (door, or more, like the airliner in Hawaii), the plane can get down to breathable altitude before any permanent damage is done.

 

[NineseveN]

None of us unwashed masses can carry on commercial airplanes, so I fail to see the point of this thread. Is that good or bad? Doesn't matter, it's private property. Of course, said property is handled differently than my backyard, now isn't it?