Considering getting a Beretta Px4
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NWcityguy2
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From the article...
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/02/05/exclusive-photos-new-glock-46/
I fail to see the counter to my point.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/02/05/exclusive-photos-new-glock-46/
I fail to see the counter to my point.
JTQ
Member
Are you saying the German police specifically asked for a design that wasn't advantageous to them?
Phaedrus/69
Member
I'm not a big fan of the PX4 due to just generally not liking what Col Cooper called "crunchentickers". The DA pull is pretty smooth though. I also don't care for the safety lever. That said, it's incredibly reliable frustratingly easy to shoot well. Last summer I was at a buddy's range working running the dueling tree and I found I could get better hits with his PX4 Storm than with most of my sidearms. If you don't mind DA/SA (or if you prefer it of course) the Beretta is a very solid gun. I'd take one over a 92F any day.
gc70
Member
I assume that "features that haven't been popular in a generation" refer to the PX4 being hammer-fired, having a DA/SA trigger (on most models), and having a manual safety and/or decocker.
It is unfortunate that an entire generation of shooters has grown up aspiring to the lowest common denominator in pistolcraft, limiting themselves to the simplest possible trigger mechanism and really only learning to manage that one control.
It seems everything comes and goes. Striker-fired guns were quite popular at the beginning of the 20th century, fell out of favor after a couple of decades, and were only revived in the last couple of decades of the century.
NWcityguy2
Member
Instead of implying an idea by asking a question, just find the information and link it here in this thread. But to answer your question, no, I don't accept a government action as purely objective just because it's a government action.
People have moved on because pistols are a means to an end. And that end is hitting a target with a bullet. I shoot DA/SA in USPSA Production and IDPA SSP. I hold Master in IDPA SSP. I'm also the president of an IDPA club. I've seen few examples of people who are good at shooting the DA trigger pull and then the DA/SA transition. The good ones I've seen are exclusively long-term competitive shooters. But I've seen lots of hobby-level shooters who are terrible at it and plenty of Youtube videos of people shooting DA/SA guns strictly in SA. It's a skill that the vast majority of shooters don't need to learn and in reality, few did to begin with.
Ignition Override
Member
NWcityguy2:
All of my handguns in 9mm ( 5) are DA/SA. What I find odd is that --with very few exceptions-- everybody who tried one of these guns takes every shot only in SA.
Why do they not want to Try the DA pulls...? Afraid that they will miss the entire target, while somebody watches? The DA pulls are not bad on the S&W 908, 6904, Sig p225 (the true German 225) nor the CZ PCR.
The Walther P99 AS (DA/SA) has probably the best DA pull among my group. The stacking increases with pull in a linear relationship.
All of my handguns in 9mm ( 5) are DA/SA. What I find odd is that --with very few exceptions-- everybody who tried one of these guns takes every shot only in SA.
Why do they not want to Try the DA pulls...? Afraid that they will miss the entire target, while somebody watches? The DA pulls are not bad on the S&W 908, 6904, Sig p225 (the true German 225) nor the CZ PCR.
The Walther P99 AS (DA/SA) has probably the best DA pull among my group. The stacking increases with pull in a linear relationship.
NWcityguy2
Member
In what should be telling, at NRA Tactical Police Competitions (TPC) they specify in the rules that DA/SA guns must be used in DA for the first shot.
http://tpc.nra.org/equipment-needed.aspx
Mosin77
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The DA pull is meant to require additional, deliberate, and non-accidental force to pull. It’s not a target gun but can be shot as such either by cocking the hammer for the first shot or by mastering the two trigger pulls and transition. A striker gun is arguably a better range gun but not necessarily a better gun to carry on your hip.
NWcityguy2
Member
First time I've seen this point argued. External hammer guns dominate shooting sports outside of 22lr and divisions have to be created to incentivize the use of striker fired guns.
Striker guns commonly have 5-6 lbs pulls and safe action triggers for the exact same reasons as you are pointing out for DA/SA guns.
gc70
Member
Not every shooter is involved in competitive gun games. Many people enjoy casual shooting and probably more own guns for protection. The broad variety of trigger and safety mechanisms reflect solutions to a large number of different purposes and uses for pistols. I have pistols with DA/SA, SA, DAO, and consistent-action triggers, combined with no manual safeties, thumb or grip safeties, or decockers and each pistol is optimized for a particular purpose; I suspect you also have a variety of purpose-specific pistols. One size simply does not fit all when it comes to pistols.
Ignition Override
Member
Somebody mentioned that a striker-fired is, or can be a better range gun.
Four of my DA/SA guns are hammer-fired.
My other DA/SA gun is the striker-fired Walther P99 AS. Bought it simply as variety (my first & Only striker-fired handgun).
The short SA trigger reset means nothing to me, but the option of DA on the first shot is Very important.
The reason I’m a “broken record” about describing this Walther is that people seem to believe that striker-fired guns can’t Also have the DA/SA features.
Four of my DA/SA guns are hammer-fired.
My other DA/SA gun is the striker-fired Walther P99 AS. Bought it simply as variety (my first & Only striker-fired handgun).
The short SA trigger reset means nothing to me, but the option of DA on the first shot is Very important.
The reason I’m a “broken record” about describing this Walther is that people seem to believe that striker-fired guns can’t Also have the DA/SA features.
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RETG
Member
Not for everyone; however, after retiring and basically, carrying a SIG; and before that H&K, I settled on PX4s (with a Stougar Cougar .40 very seldom carried) and one H&K P30SK.
At this time I have two .40s (one refinished with Cerekot) the other INOX, one 9mm stock finish. NEVER HAVE had a single problem with any of the rotary battle pistols with thousands of rounds fired through them.
However, I have relegated the INOX to a deep woods hiking gun in bear/lion areas with 200 gr HCFN Buffalo bore, while I carry an H&K 9MM through the towns and stores of Idaho.
At this time I have two .40s (one refinished with Cerekot) the other INOX, one 9mm stock finish. NEVER HAVE had a single problem with any of the rotary battle pistols with thousands of rounds fired through them.
However, I have relegated the INOX to a deep woods hiking gun in bear/lion areas with 200 gr HCFN Buffalo bore, while I carry an H&K 9MM through the towns and stores of Idaho.
MedWheeler
Member
All this rotating-barrel talk reminds me that I still haven't tried out the Mauser M2 .45 I picked up a couple of years back. I keep forgetting I have it.
I need to do something about that.
I need to do something about that.
JTQ
Member
UncleEd
Member
Many who have had experience, sometimes a lot
of experience, with the DA revolver don't find the
DA/SA autos to be all that difficult.
What we have today are many, many handgun
owners who never had that background and
can't conceive of a DA trigger, its control, being
a worthy feature. It certainly provides a level
of safety in avoiding an accidental shooting
while under stress. This the police learned
and often took away the SA feature on revolvers.
For shooters who avoid the DA feature on the gun
they may have, it would do them good to spend
some time learning that feature. It's not really
hard. And it is a safety feature they will learn to
appreciate. And need in real life, not necessarily
in gun games.
Regarding the striker fired pistols, as one gun
guru put it, "The good news is that they are
easy to fire. The bad news is that they are
easy to fire." Same could be said in handling
the 1911 SA trigger design.
of experience, with the DA revolver don't find the
DA/SA autos to be all that difficult.
What we have today are many, many handgun
owners who never had that background and
can't conceive of a DA trigger, its control, being
a worthy feature. It certainly provides a level
of safety in avoiding an accidental shooting
while under stress. This the police learned
and often took away the SA feature on revolvers.
For shooters who avoid the DA feature on the gun
they may have, it would do them good to spend
some time learning that feature. It's not really
hard. And it is a safety feature they will learn to
appreciate. And need in real life, not necessarily
in gun games.
Regarding the striker fired pistols, as one gun
guru put it, "The good news is that they are
easy to fire. The bad news is that they are
easy to fire." Same could be said in handling
the 1911 SA trigger design.
Mosin77
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Right. Mostly the external hammers dominate because the triggers on Glocks et al are crap. But they’re popular with the tactical-fast-shooting-at-the-range crowd because they are consistent and relatively light, so they can be readily used to put a lot of lead down range with reasonable accuracy.
The DA/SA provides a real world safety to prevent acute cases of Glock Leg and also to help nervous gun users in tense situations from shooting without deliberately intending to.
If I’m shooting recreationally give me a 1911 style SAO trigger every time. But I’d much rather carry a gun with a true DA first shot, which a lot of guys, in my experience, don’t care for these days. Maybe because they haven’t shot a lot of revolvers?
UncleEd
Member
A theme developing here by posters, myself included,
is that the safety factor with the DA/SA auto cannot
be overlooked nor overstressed.
Oh, and regarding the beginnings of this thread,
the PX4 Storm is a wonderful pistol.
is that the safety factor with the DA/SA auto cannot
be overlooked nor overstressed.
Oh, and regarding the beginnings of this thread,
the PX4 Storm is a wonderful pistol.
Elkins45
Member
Col Cooper just had to find something to hate so he could fill his rambling back page in G&A magazine. Either than or he was engaging in sour grapes by not liking guns he couldn’t learn to shoot well. He was one of those kinds of people who thought anything he didn’t like could never be liked by someone else, lest that person be a sissy or a communist. He also hated 9mm.
I continue to be amazed that people still treat him as an authority. As influential as he may have been at one time, he has long been eclipsed by more recent and more relevant authorities. Let the hate begin
I almost settled on the PX4 as my winter carry gun but it very narrowly lost to the CZ P07. Because of the smooth rounded styling I have heard the PX4 referred to as “the little hair dryer that could” lol.
JR24
Member
One nice thing the lockdowns and ammo shortages have done is gave me a reason to buckle down and do a pile of dry fire (and iTarget laser bullet) and learn a DA/SA trigger. Specifically a 228 I had traded for.
Learned it well, shoot it as well or very nearly so on just about any drill as my Glock 19 or 1911 with the added bonus of all my times and accuracy improving from learning the longer trigger.
Even got me to buy a HK45c DA/SA I'm enamored with, a model that I dismissed out of hand in the past due to the heavy DA trigger (makes my 228 feel positively LIGHT in comparison).
DA/SA might not be my first, or best, choice for any application, but learning it has made me a better shooter and fully worth purchasing and learning one.
NWcityguy2
Member
JTQ
Member
You are correct. I don't have any sources within the German Police. I only have access to articles on the subject.
I don't know why the German Police are interested in a gun with a rotating barrel. I don't know why Glock would expend the R&D and production resources to produce a gun with a rotating barrel, especially since they have a 35+ year record of using a different operating system.
Perhaps there is no benefit to the design. Perhaps the German Police just wanted a gun that was different from what everybody else was using. Perhaps Glock had some engineers with some free time and needed a project to work on. On the other hand, perhaps there are functional advantages to the design that were mentioned in article, and perhaps that information was included in the article after conversations with Glock and the German Police. I admit, I don't know.
It's fine with me if you don't like the PX4 or the rotating barrel design. I'm providing information to the OP who had questions about the PX4 and the rotating barrel.
I owned a couple stoegar cougars and thought the lockup design was interesting. I haven't shot a px4.
I like da/sa autos, but im a revolver fan.
Something like a sig 226 has a very smooth first da pull. It's heavy but smooth. With very little practice, that first shot is a bull's-eye and now you have a very light trigger for accuracy and follow up.
Like a revolver, the smooth heavy pull is the safety. In my own experience, I think it is harder to accidently fire a da/sa auto and revolver than it is a striker fired or single action auto.
If you train I don't think you're at a disadvantage with any of them as far as self defense goes.
To me, the heavy first trigger pull is much preferred to a safety required single action auto as far as carry goes.
I like da/sa autos, but im a revolver fan.
Something like a sig 226 has a very smooth first da pull. It's heavy but smooth. With very little practice, that first shot is a bull's-eye and now you have a very light trigger for accuracy and follow up.
Like a revolver, the smooth heavy pull is the safety. In my own experience, I think it is harder to accidently fire a da/sa auto and revolver than it is a striker fired or single action auto.
If you train I don't think you're at a disadvantage with any of them as far as self defense goes.
To me, the heavy first trigger pull is much preferred to a safety required single action auto as far as carry goes.
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