Continuing the "friend or foe" discussion

[NineseveN]

Then why are there a dozen links to different instances posted here on this thread? If I as a law abiding homeowner have to worry about sorting the good from the bad in the middle of a 3:00 A.M. gunfight, the police are not doing their jobs. Nor are the judges approving the warrants, the prosecutors compiling paperwork, etc. I fail to see how a warrant can go from observation of address XYZ to a botched invasion of innocent mans home ABC next door without gross negligence. But it has happened and will continue to happen until the S really hits the F when a four or six man team are all killed by a "oops, wrong house" prepared homeowner.

"Looks like you broke into the wrong rec room!"

 

[TallPine]

This is going to rile some of you guys up but we don't ask for permission when we have a warrant. We make entry, secure the premises, and then go through the paperwork with the occupants. I've had subjects want to stand in the doorway and argue with us or demand to read the warrant before letting us in the house and they all were quickly controlled and cuffed. Some got arrested for interferring with the execution of the warrant.

Well, I'm glad we all got that straight .....

 

[buzz_knox]

If this is a concern for some members on this board, please do not engage in any criminal activity and you probably won't have to worry about the cops searching your house! Sheesh! If you are an innocent person and that cops in your town hit the wrong houses frequently enough for you to spend one second worrying about this issue, you need to move.

Sorry, but that's not accurate. I'm as law abiding as they come, but I've had cops knocking at my door three times. Once, because they thought the person they were looking for was the last one to sign up for a blood drive (it wasn't, that was me) and twice because they didn't have the right address when serving a bench warrant (right apartment number, wrong street). So, yes, a law abiding person living in a nice neighborhood has to be concerned about cops mistakenly knocking at their door.

 

[Strings]

There are a large number of cases, when looked at seperate from total number of such warrants issued. When looked at with the total, it's probably a small percentage. That said...

How many is too many? How many lil' old ladies that didn't hear a knock, and almost get flattened at the door? How many three-year-olds held at gunpoint, and screamed at to "get down"? How many 15 year old girls killed in a hail of gunfire on the street? What's the "acceptable number"? All these are actual cases where a no knock or "dynamic stop" were used at a wrong address or used where they shouldn't have been...

I've got a theory about it: many depatrments have some form of SWAT (that's a little more serious than LawDog's group trundling along in a Korean era ambulance). These things cost money to maintain, so they have to be used to justify the expense. Add in some officers that want to be Rambo (I've seen 'em, don't tell me they don't exist), and you've got a recipe for disaster...

 

[Herself]

Okay, we may be talking apples and oranges here, so to speak, In Ohio, we have three types of search warrants. [...] Then there are the no-knock warrants, which require not only P.C., but reasonable cause to believe that the execution of the warrant poses a significant threat to the safety of any person executing the warrant. There are a whole list of requirements regarding how one seeks a no-knock warrant [...]
[...] Here, it's all about officer safety.

I am all for oficer safety. A point I keep trying to get across is that conducting a no-knock raid on my home decreases officer safety, rather than increasing it. If the poilce want to show up with a warrant at whatever time of day, beat on the door until they get my attention, announce themselves, show the the warrant and give me a chance to verify it if I am still doubtful (unlikely), I'll invite them in and would be happy to make coffee or stand quietly by and call my cousin the lawyer.
I am going to have to do some fancy footwork to make everyone comfortable securing the loaded gun that I'll be carrying when I answer the door, but it won't be visible. If that means opening the door and putting my hands up slowly while tellin' the boys there is a firearm in my pocket, that's fine.

On the other hand, if my door gets kicked in and there's no evidence the house is on fire or otherwise in imminent danger, the kicker has about ten seconds to yell "It's me" in a familiar voice to keep me from shooting at his face and center of mass in that order.
If it is a home invasion, shooting first and fast is my only effective defense. And the odds are a lot higher that anyone kicking in my door is a home invader than he is a policeman.

...One fellow suggested a person kicking one's door in "might be a relative or friend playing a joke." In my opinion, people who think that's a joke might be better off shot. Or forcibly raped. It's a real sense-of-humor-affecting experience. :banghead:

--Herself

 

[Herself]

[Won't have a chance to] examine the warrant and check IDs on just about any warrant, knock-and-announce or no-knock. This is going to rile some of you guys up but we don't ask for permission when we have a warrant. We make entry, secure the premises, and then go through the paperwork with the occupants. I've had subjects want to stand in the doorway and argue with us or demand to read the warrant before letting us in the house and they all were quickly controlled and cuffed. Some got arrested for interferring with the execution of the warrant.

The usual sort of warrant service I've seen and heard of, the officer(s) are in uniform, often in a marked vehicle. They knock or ring the bell, introduce themselves by profession, and tell the resident they've got a warrant. The warrant, a fairly distinctive-looking thing, is often held up. That is then followed by "make entry, secure the premises, and then go through the paperwork with the occupants."
No, it's not a lot of warning and it's hardly an interview over tea. But it does give the civilian a little chance to get a handle on what's happening.
A no-knock warrant doesn't allow that chance. And that's what'll get the oficers shot at if they try it at my home.

Most LEOs I have known were reasonable people. In the course of their interaction with citizens suspected of breaking laws, they want compliance with a minimum of friction. But I have found very few of them to react badly to an honest smile, careful movement, and polite talk, even when they were arresting me.* Normal warrant service, I can deal with. Kicking my door in doesn't allow time for any but the most hasty of decisions.

No-knock warrants are dangerous for police. As a homeowner, I have a reasonable expectation of security within my own home. As a law-abiding homeowner, I have no reason to expect the police to show up at my door, let alone batter it open. So the likeliest people to be breaking into my house are criminals. If my home is invaded, I will respond. If rushed, I'll respond in haste. I'd rather die trying to defend myself than die standing like a deer in the headlights.

--Herself
_______________________________
* Here's a tip: if you're in a bar and a bad fight breaks out, it's okay to head for an exit. It is not okay to run headlong into police entering the bar, bounce off them, and keep on running. I mean that. It'll get you run to earth within a block, possibly right in front of your own car. Then you'll get to spend the night in jail for Being An Idiot.

 

[keyhole]

This also to ponder.

There are cops out there that do no justice to the badge. If it makes you feel better, we don't like them either. Cops do make mistakes, sometimes it costs them their lives.
At the rate of one every 50 hours.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Here's my .02 in the issue.

I'm generally a law abiding citizen. I pay my taxes, I don't to anything that might endanger others, and I don't associate with those who do.

That means that anyone implementing something that looks like a "no knock" is massively unlikely to be a legitimate LEO serving a legitimate warrant.

Therefore, by process of elimination, anyone implementing such "no knock" strategies is either

A) An agent of evil, (organized/unorganized/who cares), who needs shootin'.
or
B) A Tragically Mistaken person, who needs motivation to be more scrupulously careful with the powers of Rights Override that we grant. (I can't think of a better motivation for people to not be mistaken in such matters)

Either way, bidirectional gunfire is likely.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Cops do make mistakes, sometimes it costs them their lives.
At the rate of one every 50 hours.

Ummm...where did you get THAT figure? Last time I looked into it, cops dead by gunfire is on the order of 60-70 a YEAR. By far, the most frequent killer of police is MVA, and yet I somehow think you're not talking about them making bad driving choices.

 

[keyhole]

Feel better about one a week? No matter how you cut it, it's too many.


As for bg's-
Very little to deter those who break the law. I see it everyday. As long as the gain outweighs the punishment, those who choose to break laws will do so.

little clearer now?

 

[Herself]

"Think of it as evolution in action." It improves the species, Keyhole.

(Shouldn't that be "ballista" in your .sig Latin?)

--Herself

 

[TMM]

Hey Oleg, excellent picture, but it's a bit dark. could you lighten it so it's easily viewable, but still dark? perhaps give the image a semi-monotone color so it looke like that time of day where there is *just* enough light to see but things are mostly black-and-grey?

i think it would greatly improve the ease of readability...

~TMM

 

[Strings]

>Feel better about one a week? No matter how you cut it, it's too many. Very little to deter those who break the law. I see it everyday. As long as the gain outweighs the punishment.<

Ummm... keyhole? You can take that both directions...

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I would

* Eliminate the fine print at the bottom

* Make the "NOW!" larger, to emphasize that you must decide instantly

* Remove the "SWAT" from the baseball cap. If that's a Surefire weapon light, with it shining in your eyes at night you aren't going to be reading what's printed on the guy's hat.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

examine the warrant and check IDs on just about any warrant, knock-and-announce or no-knock. This is going to rile some of you guys up but we don't ask for permission when we have a warrant. We make entry, secure the premises, and then go through the paperwork with the occupants. I've had subjects want to stand in the doorway and argue with us or demand to read the warrant before letting us in the house and they all were quickly controlled and cuffed. Some got arrested for interferring with the execution of the warrant.

A search warrant is an order from a judge to the executing officers to go and search a place, not to go and please beg the owner's permission, may we please, if it's not too much trouble, pretty please, tear your house apart looking for dope, body parts, kiddie porn, etc.

Hello?

Agreed a warrant is a court order authorizing you to search. But you think that means you don't have to provide the property owner an opportunity to READ the order of the court? Like, to determine that maybe you're at number 103 Brown Street and you have a warrant to search 103 Broad Street?

I'm very glad I don't live in your town. Your understanding of the law is, I believe, somewhat lacking. I cannot see how asking to read the order before granting admission is in any way "interfering."

And, since YOU raised the issue of tearing houses apart ... what's the deal on that, anyway? Suppose you get a warrant to search my house because my ex-GF made up some story. What you're looking for never existed, so of course you don't find it. Are you going to set my house to rights after conducting your search (fold clothes back in the drawers, hang clothes back int he closet, etc., repair any damage you caused), or do you toss everything, punch holes in the sheet rock, and then walk out with a cheerful "Have a nice day, Citizen"?

 

[pax]

If this is a concern for some members on this board, please do not engage in any criminal activity and you probably won't have to worry about the cops searching your house! Sheesh! If you are an innocent person and that cops in your town hit the wrong houses frequently enough for you to spend one second worrying about this issue, you need to move.

A thought experiment: Here is an honest person and neither he nor any member of his household engages in criminal activity.

If someone knocks over his door and barges into his house, this honest person is going to do his very best to shoot them no matter what they yell as they come in the door. Because he is an honest person, he has no reasonable expectation that the police would invade his home.

As you say, no knocks are rare and mistaken no knocks even more rare. It's just silly of any honest person to worry about being the victim of a mistaken no-knock, so this honest person doesn't worry about it. He simply intends to shoot any invaders.

If this honest person's intent to shoot whomever knocks over his door bothers you, oh honest cop, it is because such stupid and dangerous mistakes aren't rare enough.

End.

pax

The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. – James Madison

 

[jcims]

Too late to the party, but i just wanted to toss this idea out.

Might make the caption less required to get your point across.

Apologies to you Oleg if gimping your work is taboo...(thought a crop would be less offensive And, of course, taking a real photo with suggested hat would look a lot better )

 

[Flyboy]

If you are an innocent person and that cops in your town hit the wrong houses frequently enough for you to spend one second worrying about this issue, you need to move.

Oh, so close. If I'm innocent, and the cops hit the wrong house frequently enough for me to worry about it, it's time to change the cops!