Cost / effectiveness of building your own (large) safe?

[Mark-Smith]

In a hypothetical situation, would it be more cost effective to build your own safe if you were to cut a hole in the slab for your house, build forms, wire together rebar, buy good concrete and a safe door, and do any necessary welding yourself?

I'm fairly skilled at metalwork, Mig, Tig, etc, and while steel is depressingly expensive, I've wondered if it's more cost effective to build one yourself if you're in a residence you don't plan on moving out of any time soon.

The only thing I wouldn't be initially comfortable with would be building a safe door, but apparently larger size doors with locks can be purchased used?

Especially for a larger safe, say 5 cubic feet or more, is it more cost effective to build it yourself (save the door and lock)?

 

[a1abdj]

It would certainly save you money doing it yourself, but you may still be shocked by the cost.

 

[Mark-Smith]

Do you know of any similar projects out there in the same vein?

 

[heeler]

Actually I have known a few Texas hunters and ranchers who had welding skills that cobbed together some welded plate steel to place firearms in as they were way to close to the river for comfort and they worked fine.
But they truely looked like something that was cobbed together.

 

[Mark-Smith]

I am proud to say all of my welding work will visually hold up to any commercial stuff you'll see on the market heh. Definitely a fan of the 'do it right, make it look right' school.

 

[newfalguy101]

Have you considered how you would go about fireproofing your home build??

 

[dawico]

When we remodeled, I built our closet as a tornado shelter. I built a couple of them in peoples garages that were certified and engineered, so I was familiar with the construction. It is 8'x8', so plenty big enough for my family, my guns, and as our closet. I still keep my guns in a safe outside the closet, but have a couple of back ups in there. It doesn't have a safe door on it, but it does have a commercial metal door with three locks on it. The walls are solid block, so it is fireproof also.

Is it cheaper than a safe? For 8'x8', yes, but not many people need a safe that big. It was more expensive than the 42"x27"x72" safe I bought.

There are cut it wall safes that have a mirror on the front. That would be simple, and hidden. It doesn't have to be highly secure if it is highly secret.

 

[Mark-Smith]

That was one thing on my mind. If the majority of the safe is level with the ground, the only thing exposed to heat would be the door, so hopefully there will be a used safe door out there with a good fire rating. If not, maybe a fire-proof container on the inside of the safe.

I know some commercial models rely on venting steam from fire-proofing material, but one thing I've seen work well in person is kiln bricks. A bit heavy honestly, but I've put my bare hands a kiln that had a 1,650+ degree fire behind it for a day and a half, and it was not much more than warm to the touch (of course, that's a fairly thick layer we're talking here).

 

[dawico]

Most commercial safes just use plain old drywall for fireproofing. I believe each layer is a half hour rating.

 

[Jim Watson]

It has been some years but a coworker got into a welding school at my agency's maintenance divison. He scrounged enough scrap 1/4" plate to build a good sized safe with his and my design of locking system. Except that the plate was rather rusty and the pits showed after sandblasting, assembly, and painting, it is a professional job. Cost for the box was nil since it was considered as a lab exercise in a training program. He had to buy parts to build the bolts and locking system, but that was not a great expense.

It is uninsulated so he would be hurt by a fire of any duration but it is probably as secure as the average $1000 RSC. (My guns in an unisulated old Treadlock were not burnt but I live in town and FD response was fast.)

 

[leadcounsel]

A big advantage would be designing it so the safe could be hidden/concealed by building a false wall in front of it, maybe on hinges or something.

 

[a1abdj]

I can tell you that installing anything that is walk in size inside of existing construction is much more labor intensive than installing it during the construction process. It takes us anywhere from half a day, to a full day to cut a hole in the concrete and install a floor safe with just a few cubic feet of concrete being poured around it.

Most residential applications do not require the same type of security that a commercial application would. You could build a filled block wall easier than a poured wall and would still need to deal with the ceiling. As far as doors, depending on how valuable your time is, you can buy for less than you can build. When I'm restoring some of the antique doors that we sell, it is not uncommon for me to spend anywhere from $3,000 to $4,000 worth of time and materials just getting the door frames set up.

Most commercial safes just use plain old drywall for fireproofing. I believe each layer is a half hour rating.

Most gun safes use gypum board, usually fire treated, for insulation. Most commercial safes with fire ratings use cast insulation or composite construction.

As the interior volume of the box gets larger, the protection applied to the exterior walls becomes a little less important as the larger air volume will take much more time to heat.

 

[Keizer]

I think it would be really fun to build a safe. I worked as a journey level machinist for years, so I have welding skills, and a horrendous amount of hours logged on engine lathes, milling machines, etc.

Where I worked, we build very elaborate automated lead screw drilling and tapping machines. Willey Wonka type stuff. When I first got my AMSEC BF series gun safe, I was very curious to see the bolt work behind the door panel. I was honestly very disappointed with what I saw when I peeked back there. It was rather crude and to the point, but I guess that is all that is needed. If I built my own safe, I would do some fancy bolt work using Thompson rods and bearings.....just for the wow factor.

 

[Mark-Smith]

I was contemplating it, but properly hardened steel, relockers and all that jazz seemed to put making a good door a bit beyond my reach. If you've got any ideas you want to share, I'm your new #1 fan!

 

[BADUNAME37]

I have been in the building business, so I know a lot about costs, how things should be built, specifications, etc.

To build even a small closet and have it fireproof for, say, one or two hours, and for it to have a door with hardware that one cannot break open, and to be heavy enough (or built into the house structure), the cost would allow you to purchase at least three gun safes, if not more!

Just the steel work alone would be in the neighborhood of a thousand dollars as the hinges and lock need to be impenetrable.

If you are going to have a gun safe, it makes most sense to have one that can be moved, if necessary, even if it means having a crane come to the site to lift the safe out of a pile of burning rubble. With a built-in safe, there would be no lifting of the safe from the burning rubble, as the safe would most likely be part of the burning rubble - along with whatever contents were in it!

 

[earlthegoat2]

I think on the old safes with UL ratings they used asbestos for insulation. That stuff will take a lickin'. It would be nice if it was legal to use some of that for any upcoming gun safe builds.

The stuff they use nowadays is crappy at best but great for mass production. No modern gun safe will survive a full on home fire wheter it has the baddest fire rating or not. If you put it next to an exterior wall you are giving yourself the best chance.

 

[BADUNAME37]

What they commonly recommend is to have the fire department train their water hoses to the safes with a soft stream to keep them relatively cool.

I also agree, most likely, any gun safe would not withstand one to two thousand degrees for six hours.

 

[borntoventure]

I've been thinking about doing the same thing and building my own safe, primarily since I have a few sheets of 1/4" diamond tread steel and was once a welder. I'm getting to the point of pricing the fire-retardant drywall / gypsum board and deciding on a size, but I haven't figured out how I want to construct it.

Option 1 is to make the inner steel safe, then layers of gypsum, then an outer steel casing.

Option 2 would be to make the outer steel safe and put the gypsum on the inside, then finish out with wood. I think I'm going to go this route to save on weight.

 

[earlthegoat2]

The door will be the complicated part of any safe build. Functional will be very achievable but without a rattle and no slop will be the tricky part.

 

[Mark-Smith]

Is there pourable fire insulation as well, like concrete but gypsum or whatever material they use to make firebrick?

And making a used door fit a new frame will certainly be an adventure, heh.

 

[a1abdj]

I think on the old safes with UL ratings they used asbestos for insulation. That stuff will take a lickin'. It would be nice if it was legal to use some of that for any upcoming gun safe builds.

There were a few, but most do not.

The stuff they use nowadays is crappy at best but great for mass production.

Most of the fill materials found in modern day UL rated safes are going to be very similar to the fill materials used for the last 150 years.

The stuff used in most gun safes nowadays is in fact crappy at best

I also agree, most likely, any gun safe would not withstand one to two thousand degrees for six hours.

Most will start having problems prior to the 1 hour mark.

The door will be the complicated part of any safe build. Functional will be very achievable but without a rattle and no slop will be the tricky part.

This is it in a nutshell. We just quoted a job to construct a faux circular vault door. It was going to look real, but not function. We figured a bit over 600 hours of labor, with a total cost in the $80,000 range.

Is there pourable fire insulation as well, like concrete but gypsum or whatever material they use to make firebrick?

Yes, but it's very expensive to buy. My suppliers sell it as repair material, and I think it figures out to a few hundred dollars per cubic foot. You would be better off figuring out how to make your own.

 

[Mark-Smith]

Yes, but it's very expensive to buy. My suppliers sell it as repair material, and I think it figures out to a few hundred dollars per cubic foot. You would be better off figuring out how to make your own.

The firebrick stuff we used for the kilns was fairly inexpensive as far as I know. Really light too, almost like pumice. Probably had a high air content.

What size / cost options do used doors come in?

 

[zorro45]

safe question

there are safe doors for sale that can be mounted onto safe rooms. My old gun dealer had one in his shop. They are expensive and heavy to ship. Commercial
vaults have difficult to cut rocks as the aggregate in the concrete. If you could source some carborundum in bulk it would be ideal. I don't think this would save you any money, but it would result in a much nicer "safe" than most people have. Sort of like the difference between a home refrigerator and a commercial walk-in.

 

[a1abdj]

The firebrick stuff we used for the kilns was fairly inexpensive as far as I know. Really light too, almost like pumice. Probably had a high air content.

I've had a similar conversation here before regarding safe insulations and ovens. One is designed to keep heat in, the other out. As such, the insulations may be similar, but have some important differences.

I have no knowledge regarding kiln insulations, but can tell you that most safe insulations have some moisture content. Even without moisture, the air in the insulation is a plus. A concrete room will do well in a residential fire.

What size / cost options do used doors come in?

Smallish, not fancy, and $1,000 to very large, very ornate, and $250,000. Lots of stuff in between.

I'm a fan of some of the used government armory doors that can be had for $2,500 or so. Half inch plate, well designed, a bit larger than average, and a fraction of their new cost.

 

[Mark-Smith]

I'm a fan of some of the used government armory doors that can be had for $2,500 or so. Half inch plate, well designed, a bit larger than average, and a fraction of their new cost.

What sizes do they come in, and with what locks?