Cross-Platform Training: Guns That Contradict Each Other

[OregonJohnny]

I just signed up for my first "real" firearms training course - Defensive Handgun 1 at a very highly-regarded local training academy.

This is an 8-hour course where you fire 350 rounds of ammunition and work through admin/combat/tactical reloads, malfunction drills, shooting from cover, drawing from concealment, CQ shooting, 1-handed shooting, etc. I am extremely excited!

The class isn't for another 5 months, and I now face a dilemma: Which gun?

I know there have been many discussions on "beware the man with 1 gun", and "generalist versus specialist", and I'm now contemplating which gun I should get down-and-dirty with at this all-day training course. Obviously, if I were LEO, I'd bring my duty pistol. As a citizen that carries different guns for different occasions, and yet another for home defense, I face a tough decision. Should I take the gun I know the best and which feels the best/most natural in my hands? Perhaps the gun I keep as a primary home defense weapon? Maybe the gun I carry in my pocket every day?

Each of my self-defense caliber semi-auto handguns has a totally different manual of arms. Beretta 92FS, 1911 Government, Sig P220, Springfield XD40sc, etc. If I could take this class over and over again for free with all my different handguns, I would. But I must choose 1.

For those that do not limit their serious training to 1 type of firearm - how do you train with handguns that "contradict" each other? For instance, when I get a perfect shooting grip on my 1911, my right thumb rests on the top of the safety, and my left thumb indexes in a straight line in front of that. This grip does not work at all on my 220. My thumb ends up riding the slide catch lever, and keeps the slide from reliably locking back on the last round. Doing a quick press on the slide catch lever of my Beretta 92FS is instinctive and very comfortable to me in a fast reload situation, but it simply sweeps down the decocker on the 220. A draw-and-shoot with my XD40sc requires no manipulation of a safety, and allows the same trigger pull from first shot to second shot. The 1911 safety must be swept off, and the Sig and Beretta require a very specific DA first trigger pull, then into SA.

Is cross-platform training a good idea, or does it put far too many variables into the chain of reaction? I almost feel like if I take this class with say, my Sig P220, I'll feel stupid in carrying anything else, since I won't have the same proficiency and training with it. I shoot my Beretta better than any of my other handguns, but I'm much more likely to use my Kahr CW9 or Ruger LCP as a CCW from day to day.

Any thoughts?

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Generally, I don't train with guns that contradict each other. I got rid of my DA/SA guns and my SA w/safety guns and now only own pistols that are striker fired, single trigger weight, no safety.

 

[Bobson]

I may have to link to this thread next time I post in a which handgun should I buy next thread. Owning handguns with varying manuals of arms never made any sense to me, and this is the exact reason.

Not sure how I'd handle your problem, short of selling a number of my guns and replacing them with other "matching" types (eg, a SIG P220, P229, P239, and P238, or something similar). Frankly, that's my honest recommendation to you. Most manufacturers offer enough models to do this, so it always made sense to me. Anyway, good luck.

 

[OregonJohnny]

Really? So nobody owns/shoots/trains with a Glock and a 1911? Or a j-frame revolver and a Sig? Nobody carries a .44 Magnum revolver as a hunting backup or backpacking gun, and an M&P 9mm on the streets?

I find it hard to believe that those who get intimately familiar with 1 type of firearm never carry another type if their wardrobe/situation/environment/task dictates it.

 

[Fred_G]

I would contact the instructor of the course and explain your question. Maybe bring a few guns?

I am pretty comfortable with a 1911 and my M&P 9mm. (Note, I said comfortable, not I am a total expert with multiple gun platforms.) My Smith has a safety that is similar to the 1911.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I own Mossberg 500s, High Standard Flite Kings, a Browning BHP, Winchester Model 12, Winchester Model 97, Stevens 520 and 620 and an Ithaca Model 37. I also own Browning Auto 5s, a Mossberg 930, Winchester SLP, Remington 11-48, 1100 and 11-87.

But when I have to put hands on a shotgun for serious, it's always a Remington 870. I don't want to have to think about what button where has to be pushed to do what. With an 870, my hands already know.

I can run all those other shotguns. Hand me one of them, or anything not on that list, and I can get by with it. But an 870 is like a body part.

For handguns around here there is a similar wide variety that are owned. But what I carry is the same little S&W 642 that's been in my pocket all day 99.999% of the days since 2005. Even if I sometimes carry a larger pistol and/or or a long gun the 642 is there. And the larger pistol is apt to be a Glock 30, 19 or 17, or maybe a S&W M&P9c DAO. I haven't actually carried a 1911 since ... 1990, as best I can recall, which is when I bought my first Glock 19. And I first shifted from a J frame revolver to a 1911 in about 1979. And we just got a pair of SiG P250s and a S&W M&P .357 to experiment with as well.

But experimenting is one thing. Carrying is something else completely, as far as I'm concerned. It takes me a good while to transition comfortably from one kind of carry pistol to another. Getting a holster that carries well is another issue.

You can call me a stick in the mud if you want to, I don't care. I carry the same gun in the same holster in the same place for years and it doesn't bother me a bit. But my hands know where that gun is and how to make it work without my brain having to get involved in the transaction once the SHOOT decision is made, and that's the way I want it.

And my favorite trainer (Louis Awerbuck) doesn't use a beeper, or yell GO or FIRE on the line. He yells SHOOT, just like my brain does.

Consistency might be the bane of small minds, but it doesn't confuse the big brains like too many variables can...

 

[OregonJohnny]

But when I have to put hands on a shotgun for serious, it's always a Remington 870. I don't want to have to think about what button where has to be pushed to do what. With an 870, my hands already know.

I can run all those other shotguns. Hand me one of them, or anything not on that list, and I can get by with it. But an 870 is like a body part.

I feel the exact same way about a Remington 870. Too many summers spent as a teenager shooting birds in a blueberry field with one to bother trying to get cozy with any other shotgun platform.

But with handguns, I feel like there are just so many different situations that may warrant carrying different types of platforms. I too love my 642 in coat pocket. But it's not the handgun that sits next to the bed at night. And in the summer, when I'm wearing a t-shirt and shorts, the LCP is just so perfect for slipping into my shorts pocket.

The 1 thing that I keep consistent in my carry guns is no manual safety. I don't carry my 1911 for this reason. It's a range gun only at this point. Whether it's a Ruger LCP, S&W 642, Sig 220, XD40sc, or whatever, all I have to do is draw, aim, and pull. It's the size, shape, trigger pull, and reloading method that are unique to each gun.

But I can't imagine taking an 8-hour, 350-round tactical handgun course with a j-frame revolver. Or a Ruger LCP.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I'm a firm believer in training with what you carry. Weekend before last I shot a match with the J frame. About 125 rounds, in about 20 minutes. The gun was so hot I could hardly handle it, and my hands were bloody from the extractor star. There were range staff on hand to help reload speedloaders or it would have taken even longer - they were reloading magazines for the box fed gun folks too, so it wasn't like I was getting special treatment or anything. To be fair, I had to reshoot about half the course of fire because the timer dropped one of my times and no one could figure out which stage had been dropped. But that just meant I lost track of how many rounds I went through (and got a little more rattled), because I shot up all the ammo I had brought and was well into a box of range ammo before I was done. Since I wasn't reloading my own speedloaders at that point I don't know for sure how many rounds I used out of that box. I for sure couldn't count!

That was about 24 reloads, give or take. If you carry a snubby, ammo management is a primary consideration, which makes hitting what you shoot at very important, and reloading smoothly is critical. I learned how important reloading under pressure is at the Snubby Summit years ago, and I had six Safariland speedloaders with me for the match (I normally carry just one). Part of the COF required a head shot on an occluded (hostage) target at what, about 15 yards? Maybe it wasn't that far, but it felt like it. One of the other things I learned at the Snubby Summit was the utility of lasers, and the CT Lasergrips on the 642 made things easier.

Shooting high volume courses of fire with a 5-shot wheelgun isn't easy. Neither are gunfights, though, they tell me...

 

[Claude Clay]

cause the seasons change, where i am going and how i am dressed:
what i think may happen and what i think can happen--
what tools ( i usually have a secondary) will best serve my perceived needs...

so i have K-t's p380 & p 11, S&W 642 or 332 or 351pd & m60 Pro, Sig C3 and sometimes take a P7 or a Colt 1908-380.
with training the hand knows what it is holding and how to operate it.
so the concept of contradicting platforms has little meaning to me.

do what works for you.
many like to stay with one type of platform in different sizes and configurations.
there is no disagreeing with the advantage of that

 

[Bobson]

Really? So nobody owns/shoots/trains with a Glock and a 1911? Or a j-frame revolver and a Sig? Nobody carries a .44 Magnum revolver as a hunting backup or backpacking gun, and an M&P 9mm on the streets?

I find it hard to believe that those who get intimately familiar with 1 type of firearm never carry another type if their wardrobe/situation/environment/task dictates it.

I never said nobody does it; just that it doesn't make sense to me when there are so many options that allow me to avoid even a potential disadvantage. I like Glocks, so I can keep a G22 at home, a G23 for EDC, and a G27 (or a G17, G19, G26, or the SIG example I used before, etc, etc) when I need something more concealable. But heck, I would think your practice is the norm, while my approach is much less common.

In your original post, you asked for opinions concerning cross-platform training. If you're so sure of yourself, there was no reason for you to start this thread. Use whatever gun you want - it makes no difference which gun you train with, because your skills will carry over without issue. Good luck with your [evidently] hypothetical predicament.

 

[Serenity]

I can't afford to buy all Sigs but I do plan to only purchase guns without an external safety, like my P226. The gun I'm looking at for carry is DAO so I've been shooting my Sig in dual action a lot more than I used to. At the class I went to we were doing 3 shots at a time, then I had to decock it and set it down. I made myself use DA for the first shot of each set, so 1/3 of my shots were in dual action. My first shots were right on target, but they took a while

 

[sidheshooter]

I'll add a few thoughts, FWIW.

I've taken a couple of classes roughly equivalent to what you are describing multiple times in order to run different platforms (DA/SA–which I have since gotten away from–1911, and DAO/Revolver). I find that the basics transfer over; I've never screwed anything up from a purely manipulative standpoint. I've also found that my hands just gravitate to where they need to be, whether it's the Colt Commander, or the K-Frame 65.

So I wouldn't sweat it too much.

That said, I'd be very surprised if this is your last class: you own a bunch of guns, you hang out on gun forums, and you are excited about the class. You will be taking others (and good on that, for sure).

For that reason, I would be inclined to recommend a 9mm, purely for cost reasons. I don't reload, so I've *got* to have a 9mm.

As well, you will get more out of a 350 round count class if you can minimize fatigue. Keep it simple, and keep it low recoil. I've gone back to take a class with an alloy wheelie, but I just use the old 9 for the first exposure; concentration is finite, and classes are an investment.

I am at heart a die-hard wheelie guy, but the place I train now is pretty auto-centric, so I actually bought a gun specifically for training (well, that, and the fact that I always wanted one): the S&W 3953–a DAO 9mm. That particular semi is almost like an honorary revolver; If I have to use a semi-auto for a class, then that one will carry over to my collection of round guns passably well, aside from the obvious manipulations.

One last thought (and I realize that I may get flamed all the way back into 2011 with this one): I have never seen a user of a micro auto (including kahr P380, Ruger LCP, Bersa Thunder) make it through a class without malfs; this includes myself during a level 2 class with a SIG P238, although mine was *by far* the best of the breed in that regard and certainly in line with the few 1911s present. (That's another bias; I *love* my 1911, but it ain't no Glock or XD when the round count goes way up over a weekend. Maybe everyone else's 1911 is awesome and my Colt is just the exception...)

Please take all that with a grain (especially the 1911 part, for the love of all that is holy). I'm no armed pro, just a guy who likes to train for fun. But I also like to get my money's worth, so I'm big on user-friendly 9mms for training, so I can worry about the learning.

Either that, or just do what Fred does and use what you actually carry and deal with the pain/drag factor. I've done that too, with both that little SIG (I got my rear kicked on the competitive legs of the course, but at least I knew where I stood with it) and my pet wheelies (J, SP, model 12 Ksnub). Your CW9 would certainly be cheap to feed and simple to use for this and future events.

JMO.

Again, grain of salt.

 

[OregonJohnny]

I'd be very surprised if this is your last class: you own a bunch of guns, you hang out on gun forums, and you are excited about the class. You will be taking others (and good on that, for sure).

Yep, I'm already saving my pennies for their Defensive Shotgun course a month after the handgun course.

I would be inclined to recommend a 9mm

Yes, the more I think about it, the more I gravitate toward my Beretta 92FS for a course like this. The cost of 9mm, coupled with the low recoil and the higher capacity of the Beretta make it stand out from my stable of handguns. Also, it is the handgun that feels the most like an extension of my own body.

I keep the Sig P220 Carry Elite for home defense (at this point), with a Streamlight TLR-1 mounted, and I plan to take a Low Light/Night Fire course later in the year using the Sig. The benefit is that the DA/SA of the Beretta will carry over into my training with the Sig. After 350-400 rounds with the Beretta in an intense course like this, I'll either love it even more, or I'll put it back in the safe and try again with something else.

I find that the basics transfer over

I am going into it with this frame of mind. I've been shooting casually for about 20 years. But if all I get out of this course is how to handle a firearm, any firearm, with proficiency while under some stress and a little competition, while being instructed/corrected by those who know much more than me, it will be worth the cost of registration.

 

[Fred_G]

"Also, it is the handgun that feels the most like an extension of my own body."

Question solved. I think that would be the gun.

 

[OregonJohnny]

"Also, it is the handgun that feels the most like an extension of my own body."

Question solved. I think that would be the gun.

Yeah, but not the most CCW-friendly. Although member Shipwreck would disagree.

I really wish beretta still made the single-stack version of the 92 Compact.

 

[loneviking]

The Beretta 92 has a lot of different variations out there, most with the same manual of arms. The single stack compact can still be found with a bit of looking. Saw a 'new old stock' one at my Cabelas at christmas.

I won't carry guns with very different manuals of arms. All of mine are DA/SA decockers with slide mounted safeties. I've had no problem finding different size guns to fit different situations..YMMV.

 

[Sam1911]

It is a very good and very serious question. I DO practice with, compete with, and carry several different styles of handgun. (1911, xDM, 629, CZ75 (SA or DA/SA), and others on occasion.)

I tend to concentrate on one platform at a time. When I switch between them I expect to need 1,000 rounds or so (maybe a couple months) of weekly practice to get back on top of my game with them. I can pick up any of them, any day, and make a shot -- but to really RUN a gun well, to be in top form with it, I need to concentrate on that one and re-establish the habits that make me do what needs done with that gun seamlessly, every time, without conscious effort.

If you want to get the most out of your training dollar, pick one gun, put the others in the safe, and dedicate yourself to becoming ONE with that weapon for a period of time (like, maybe one full year).

That's not the "gun nut" perspective -- which wants to play with all the cool, pretty, fun, interesting, and different guns -- but more the shooting mastery view.

(I also firmly believe that we're trending toward a common best type of pistol -- one basic form that does the very best job for the very largest number of skilled shooters with the highest return on the practice & training investment. But which one is a debate for another time.)

 

[Al Thompson]

Agree with Sam and Fred. Pick a platform and stick with it. I did that a year or two back and my progression validated that course of action.

As regards the platform, my take is one action type. If you concentrate on the DA/SA family, I think your M92 skills will translate over to your P220 fairly well. Your XD .40, not so much.

As far as revolvers vrs. autos, I find that my grip is different enough that I have two skill sets.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Just my .02 worth.
Before I lost everything in that tragic boating accident <grin> I had many different types of guns and shot them all on a regular basis. However for carry I have ONE type. DA/SA with a decocker and "second strike" capability...period.

Now I'm not saying that specific combo is any better than any other out there, my point is that I stay consistent with my SD sidearms and don't try to "mix it up" because I have had personal experience with the old phrase "you don't rise to the occasion, you default to the level of your training".

 

[mstreddy]

Really? So nobody owns/shoots/trains with a Glock and a 1911? Or a j-frame revolver and a Sig? Nobody carries a .44 Magnum revolver as a hunting backup or backpacking gun, and an M&P 9mm on the streets?

I find it hard to believe that those who get intimately familiar with 1 type of firearm never carry another type if their wardrobe/situation/environment/task dictates it.

Oregon Johnny,
Some have already weighed in on this, but I'll throw my 2 cents in... Just take it for what it's worth - 2 cents - Will that even buy bubble gum today?

I own and shoot lots of different guns. I carry in my military duties the venerable M9. I prefer to shoot Glocks and as my CCW carry a 26/27 and occasionally LCP. Though I have CCW (officially) an M9 before. For me (just speaking for me) I stick to mostly these few types of guns. I own and shoot lots with 1911s, various 22s, revolvers (DA/SA & SA) and rifles galore.
Now, my thoughts in a carry weapon comes down simply to manual of arms, muscle memory, and training. I own and shoot a 92FS because I have to remain proficient for my M9. I shoot lots with my Glocks because that's what I enjoy and carry. I shoot the others for the sheer joy. I stick with the Glock and M9 as the working tools. If I was to take a course such as yours, I'd go with the Glock 17. Putting 300-500 rounds through it would not be a big deal for me. Would I want to do that with my LCP - NO. 50 rounds is around the limit of pain threshold for me on that little bugger.
You mentioned something on your Sig that I found true (for me) and will preclude me from choosing to carry one given my other platforms. The sweeping of the decocker lever when reaching for the slide catch/release. I have been on the range with my brethren that carry the Sig M11 and we have swapped out for some fun plinking time and every time I run dry and go through a quick mag change I find myself hitting the decocker. Can I overcome that with training? Yes, but I would have to spend time on it. You mentioned the safety on the 1911. Yes, if you carry cocked and locked you have to disengage it as you come up or out. Again, can you train for this? Yes.
The way we (AF) train on our M9s is to only use the safety as a decocker and we carry hammer down, safety off, round in chamber and ready to fire (DA) once drawn. I find it to be the same movements for drawing and shooting the Glocks (of course trigger pull is different). When I "play" with my 1911s on the range and am able to do some holster work, I carry it cocked and unlocked. So, I just draw and fire. My LCP would be the same. On my handguns the safety is not engaged under most circumstances.
I know that there is lots of discussion/disagreement on this, but this is just MY opinion.
For your class, I think the 92FS would be a great platform. It is another gun that I could put hundreds of rounds through with little physical strain. A good holster, belt and mag pouches and you'll be good to go.
And to (finally) answer your question above -- yes, I am intimately familiar with many weapons (Glock, M9, 1911), use plenty of others in training/fun but routinely carry only the 3 - Glock, M9, LCP.
And lastly, I'll close with this - others have mentioned it, and I found it to be true in my experience - good solid training (fundamentals) with one weapon will transfer over to others. I refined my shooting via a 1911, and have applied the same principles to my Glocks, M9 and pretty much everything else. Will you have to tweak certain things, (hold/grip, sight picture, etc) yes, but that is normal when switching platforms.

EM

 

[OregonJohnny]

you don't rise to the occasion, you default to the level of your training

This quote, and this thread, remind me of a story I read in an outdoor magazine about a man who was charged by a grizzly bear while deer hunting. He had hunted for years with a pump-action rifle, but for some reason, this trip he had to borrow someone's bolt-action. The grizzly charged, and he found himself trying to pump the heck out of a bolt gun! He lived to tell the story, but it goes to show that your brain may revert back to the basics when in a panic.

I appreciate all the comments and opinions. I am starting to agree with the theory of a single manual of arms. I also agree that the basics and fundamentals of some serious training will carry over into other platforms.

I do love the simplicity of the striker-fired, no manual safety, consistent trigger pull guns (Glock, XD, etc.), but I also like the second-strike capability and ergonomics of the Beretta 92. I am sure that I'll change my mind back and forth between now and the class, but at this point I am pretty much decided on running the Beretta.

When I switch between them I expect to need 1,000 rounds or so (maybe a couple months) of weekly practice to get back on top of my game with them.

This is an interesting concept. Try telling this to the people who have run 1911's or Glock 9mm's for years, then ask what .44 Magnum revolver to buy for their trip to Alaska next week!

But I think the point most here are trying to make is that if you carry and shoot guns that are similar enough (not necessarily identical or from the same manufacturer), then enough fundamental training with 1 of them will benefit your skills with the rest of them.

 

[Sam1911]

When I switch between them I expect to need 1,000 rounds or so (maybe a couple months) of weekly practice to get back on top of my game with them.

This is an interesting concept. Try telling this to the people who have run 1911's or Glock 9mm's for years, then ask what .44 Magnum revolver to buy for their trip to Alaska next week!

I make that exact switch -- 1911 to .44 629 -- about once a year or two. There is ALWAYS a significant uptake period while I re-learn my DA trigger control, sight discipline, grip, and get the reload process back into my circuitry.

While the motivation to develop those skills may be significantly increased by having a large angry bear charging me, I doubt my success rate would improve.

 

[OregonJohnny]

I make that exact switch -- 1911 to .44 629 -- about once a year or two. There is ALWAYS a significant uptake period while I re-learn my DA trigger control, sight discipline, grip, and get the reload process back into my circuitry.

Yes, but my point was that the average person most likely doesn't put months of time and thousands of rounds into their training with said .44 before heading off into the wilds. The time and financial requirement is just too much for a lot of people.

 

[Sam1911]

Yes, but my point was that the average person most likely doesn't put months of time and thousands of rounds into their training with said .44 before heading off into the wilds. The time and financial requirement is just too much for a lot of people.

Heh...I'm sure that makes the bears rest a little easier!

 

[jackpinesavages]

..........