Debate: American Exceptionalism

[Monkeyleg]

America is physically spectacular, from the Everglade swamps to the Rocky Mountains to the Sonora desert to the teeming cities like NY, and everything in between. I don't know of another country with such diverse landscape.

Our government, even at its worst moments and with its worst actors (Kennedy, Schumer, et al) still stands head and shoulders above others, including Western industrialized nations such as France.

Our economic system, despite the ocassional hiccup, offers opportunity that almost no other country does. In how many countries can a family from, say, Pakistan open a small convenience store, and in five years own multiple stores? I've seen firsthand many rags-to-riches stories.

While we project our military might, we do so sparingly and with what we believe are the best intentions. We don't seek to occupy or colonize. (Given the situation in Iraq, I expect many will disagree).

We enjoy more freedoms than any other nation, including the right to be armed. Yes, we have to fight to keep those freedoms, but fighting to be free is part of the human saga.

Never having set foot outside North America, I admittedly make these comments based only upon what I have read. But I do believe that, while the USA is not perfect, it's as close as they come.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

American Exceptionalism is part and parcel to a bevy of other "American Myths" to which the people seem to believe.

Current economic conditions and Fed and FedGod monetary practices (continuous ridiculous expansion of the money supply, extreme long-term debt and off-budget debt, etc., etc.) seem to indicate that the FedGod takes such "American Exceptionalism" to near religeous fervor.

Alexander Tyler, a 18th century historian said it well when he wrote:
"The average age of th world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:
From bondage to spiritual faith...
From spritual faith to great courage...
From courage to liberty...
From liberty to abundance...
From abundance to complacency...
From complacency to apathy...
From apathy to dependence...
And from dependence back again into bondage...

I would have added in present-day Amerika's case, perhaps from apathy into decadence....

This ONCE WAS the greatest country in the world, as perhaps was probably the most free, but no longer (from economic and other utilitarian perspectives).

This is due in no small part to the inability of the population to understand their history, their place in history and WHY the country was great, and how and why they country got off track. And when I use the word "country" I should avoid the error that most commit by conflating the terms "country" and "nation" with "The Government", or as I like to call it, FedGod. I call it such because the population has become accustomed to percieiving the present status quo in regards to the relationship of the government to the people as something sacred. Again the loss of perspective to times when the government was nothing as it is today in the lives of the populace is something the current population cannot even concieve....

But that's just my opinion.....though there is plenty of evidence to support it...

America the best? What do you mean by the terms you employ? America the Nation (the collection of historic beliefs, culture, and practices that create a unique people): American GOVERNMENT (FedGod, often used when people use the royal "we" to speak of the actions of the Government); the geographical expanse; or the people?

The first step to understanding is to have some kind of commonality in the use of the terms you use, don't you think?

Far, far, too many people think of "America" (especially military or ex-military, government employees, or LEOs) think of the GOVERMENT (FedGod) as America...that's the START of major brainwashing....

 

[Moondoggie]

"When in the course of human events" is a continum, not an end unto itself. Despite the human failings of the folks in positions of responsibility, none of our elections have been decided with tanks and troops.

Your attention is invited to the fact that despite the promises of Barbara Strisand, Alec Baldwin and others of the Michael Moore segment of the left to move elsewhere..... THEY'RE STILL HERE.

These folks would still be living the lifestyle of the rich and famous regardless of what spot on the map they picked...BUT THEY'RE STILL HERE!

I think that about covers it.

 

[ka50]

My take on this:

Lots of people got fed up with the royalty and moved to create a nation of laws

Thus it made it a nation of laws that does not uphold roles of humans in system of traditional hierarchy.

The drawback is lack of culture.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Our government, even at its worst moments and with its worst actors (Kennedy, Schumer, et al) still stands head and shoulders above others, including Western industrialized nations such as France.

Our government, even at its worst moments and with its worst actors (Kennedy, Schumer, et al) still stands head and shoulders above others, including Western industrialized nations such as France.

Our economic system, despite the ocassional hiccup, offers opportunity that almost no other country does. In how many countries can a family from, say, Pakistan open a small convenience store, and in five years own multiple stores? I've seen firsthand many rags-to-riches stories.

While we project our military might, we do so sparingly and with what we believe are the best intentions. We don't seek to occupy or colonize. (Given the situation in Iraq, I expect many will disagree).

We enjoy more freedoms than any other nation, including the right to be armed. Yes, we have to fight to keep those freedoms, but fighting to be free is part of the human saga.

Never having set foot outside North America, I admittedly make these comments based only upon what I have read. But I do believe that, while the USA is not perfect, it's as close as they come.

Describing the current government as the best in the world is akin to saying that the patient is in the best health of all in the cancer ward. As the entire world seems to slip into some dystopian nightmare, and the government expands beyond any concept the Founders could concieve, as an incredible number of new laws take effect to which you are subject every day, I guess, "yeah...I could be worse off..", as if that is the quesiton. Some could even say that the Civil War was "worth it" for the American South to endure a level of devastation equivalent to what Soviet Russia suffered at the hands of the Nazis...but is this the America most of us (over 45) grew up into?

As to the economic system, to state that the present state of the U.S. economy is on anything approaching a sound foundation is lunacy. Sound? By what criteria? Use of resources? Soundness of the currency? Central bank monetary policy? REAL state of employment? Realistic growth of GOOD jobs (not menail service jobs) long term? Manufacturing capacity and self-sufficiency?

I think not....To think that the economic condition is sound at best reflects an absence of insight and understanding of readily available statistical information...not the pap served up by Government statistics...

Insofar as projecting military might, how might that jive with traditional (read pre-WWI) American valus and virtues? Kind of what Hume said about what COULD BE, SHOULD BE...though the U.S. FedGod spends probably 4 times more than the next smaller nations combined on military power and its projection, is this necessarily a GOOD thing? Why? To say that the U.S. government does not mean to occupy (read: CONTROL) is flat wrong on the face of it...that's what the U.S. military's job has BEEN since the fall of the Soviet Union and Communist Bloc. Remember the Peace Dividend? That's about as extinct as the Contract with America...


As for the "right" to be armed, current laws present that "right" to be more of a privilege, if strictly defined...But yes, we do have freedoms..."we" can shop in any mall we want.....
Sorry...many misconceptions apparent in posts here....

 

[tube_ee]

Is America a great nation? Of course she is, else I would not have given 6 years of my life to her defense.

Is she the best nation she can be? No, of course not, and it is in no way disloyal to say so. We fall short of our ideals in many, many ways. Rags to riches stories aside, the class in which you were born is still the class in which you will likely die. Wealth still confers too many advantages beyond "I can have more stuff." We seem to have taken our turn at trying to rule the world, something that history says every sufficiently powerful nation tries.. and fails to do. We seem to be quite willing to surrender liberty to fear. We are too quick to see our differences, and too slow to see the things which make us one.

All that said, this was the first place in which all of the ideals of the Enlightenment came together to form a government, and the principles we aspire to (even when we fall short) are still some of the purest ever put forth by man.

All in all, we've got much to be proud of, and some serious stuff to work on. Does that make us "special?" No, it makes us lucky, and obligated.

Our work goes on... that "more Perfect Union" is never done.

--Shannon

 

[Khornet]

M. Legrand,

disqualified from seriois debate, by virtue of the spelling of America with a 'k'. I no longer have to take your arguments seriously.

 

[Iain]

You are a great country, no question. Plenty to be proud of.

What grates a little with those of us Europeans, for whom the mere concept of America does not grate purely on principle, is the so-called patriotism that not only says that anything in America is superior to anything elsewhere because it is American, but that anything elsewhere must suck by virtue of the fact that it is not American.

Patriotism is great, but I like it as a positive concept, that my country is good, not that every other country is rubbish because it is not my country (although some countries are flat out useless)

There an awful lot of people that are proud to be British, or French or German. They often have good reasons.

Then there are those who see and regret her faults, but love her still because they see that her virtues remain, and far outweigh her faults.

I suspect a lot of them would say this about their own country. Myself included. I expect now that someone will list (the admittedly legion) problems that exist in my country and that's fine.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Khornet wrote:
"disqualified from seriois (sic) debate, by virtue of the spelling of America with a 'k'. I no longer have to take your arguments seriously."

My....aren't we touchy? That someone, anyone, "not take my arguments seriously.." on the basis of an intentional misspelling, fills me with (feigned) hurt and indignation. I'm sure the wound will heal.

The use of the "k" should be obvious. That you find it such an eggregious disqualifier indicates that you either 1) are hypersensitive to spelling and grammar in this "Age of the Common Man" , or 2) That the implication represents a perspective so foreign to your sensibilities that you wish to discard any line of reasoning subsequent, wholesale.

Suit yourself...

 

[Monkeyleg]

Wllm. Legrand:

Welcome to THR. I don't think my statements said that anything about the US being perfect, but rather that what we have is far preferable to the alternatives the rest of the world provides.

I think you're going to find a home on many threads debating at length. If you enjoy that, then you're going to have a good time.

 

[grampster]

Speaking of Malls: Go to one on Christmas Eve and sit yourself down in the middle of it. Watch closely. Nowhere on earth in these days and times (or perhaps at any time) will you see such a polyglot of humanity striding purposefully and peacefully forth.

I leave it to you, after that exprience, to think what you will.

 

[Cosmoline]

I only go forth to the mall this time of year if I'm carrying an assault rifle! It's absolute madness out there. Complete and total INSANITY.

 

[RealGun]

The US has been exceptional ever since George Washington declined to be made King and served as President for only a limited time.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

The US has been exceptional ever since George Washington declined to be made King and served as President for only a limited time.

Indeed...that period of history produced the greatest experiment in the history of man. What is significant as well is to juxtopose the government that was produced THEN, with the government that has evolved SINCE.

The confusing of the first government with the present is one of the Great Amerikan Myths. The size, nature, influence, and power of the government in Washington's time is simply not the same animal as the beast of today. But we should not get into the habit (again) of confusing America with its government. That's what happens when people start using the "we", as in "We should just blow ____ to he11, after all they're 'our' enemies." That's an annoying practice that seems to lead to the habitual inability to make other necessary distinctions.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Resolved: this is the greatest country in the world.

That belief is referred to as American Exceptionalism.

I agree with it.

Any takers?

Not only that, but we are unique, not just in degree, but in type. We were founded on the principles laid out in the Declaration of Independence, which include that government is the primary threat to liberty, and that a people have the inborn right to alter or abolish it, and to replace it with one that recognizes the rights of the people, rights which precede government, and are not dependent on government for their existence or creation.

 

[Wllm. Legrand]

Not only that, but we are unique, not just in degree, but in type. We were founded on the principles laid out in the Declaration of Independence, which include that government is the primary threat to liberty, and that a people have the inborn right to alter or abolish it, and to replace it with one that recognizes the rights of the people, rights which precede government, and are not dependent on government for their existence or creation.

Absolutely correct your referencing the Declaration of Independence and those PRIMARY PRINCIPALS which the Founders created the first American Nation (Articles of Confederation vs. the second Constitution, a near revolution in substance).

Which begs the questions:

How could one today compare the declaration of grievances against the King with those under which the population of the nation now suffers? Read it. And compare.

"The People" have little ability to create substantive change in "their" government, much as a ship like the Titanic had little ability to change course effectively. There is too small a "rudder" available to create change in relation to the entrenched inertia of the One Big/Two Party system. I can only believe that very few people have read history. But the other explanation is that living in a system or society significantly reduces the individuals ability to see things as they might appear "outside". As the baby elephant tethered to the stake in the ground, soon the chain becomes unnecessary and the chain is reduced from iron to merely rope...populations, as elephants, become conditioned to their State, without the ability to conceive of things being any other way.

Or so it seems today.

 

[GoRon]

"The People" have little ability to create substantive change in "their" government, much as a ship like the Titanic had little ability to change course effectively. There is too small a "rudder" available to create change in relation to the entrenched inertia of the One Big/Two Party system.

The only hope we have is to privatize education and get rid of the government propaganda centers. Otherwise the government will continue raise up voters who vote the way the government wants them to.

In spite of our governments faults the nation itself is still the "Shining City" on the hill.

 

[antarti]

No doubt about this - I've lived off-shore in two "good" countries (New Zealand and Switzerland) for extended periods of time as a civilian and neither would even begin to compare with what we take for granted here.

I got a slap in the face by some harsh reality while overseas not too long ago.

Before that my life has been spent taking my country more or less for granted, and that was shameful on my part. I realized my "success" in life (such that it is) is maybe 1% due to my studies and work-ethic. It is 99% due to the sacrifice of those who went before to give me the opportunities I was able to take advantage of.

I'm not taking anything for granted anymore, especially not how "exceptional" we will always be "just because we're America, and things are different here, and xxxxxx could never happen here".

If we are "exceptional", it's not because the "we" of today made it that way. Whether we stay "exceptional" is another story entirely, and a responsibility to be hung at our doorsteps, not of the Founders.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Absolutely correct your referencing the Declaration of Independence and those PRIMARY PRINCIPALS which the Founders created the first American Nation (Articles of Confederation vs. the second Constitution, a near revolution in substance).

Which begs the questions:

How could one today compare the declaration of grievances against the King with those under which the population of the nation now suffers? Read it. And compare.

"The People" have little ability to create substantive change in "their" government, much as a ship like the Titanic had little ability to change course effectively. There is too small a "rudder" available to create change in relation to the entrenched inertia of the One Big/Two Party system. I can only believe that very few people have read history. But the other explanation is that living in a system or society significantly reduces the individuals ability to see things as they might appear "outside". As the baby elephant tethered to the stake in the ground, soon the chain becomes unnecessary and the chain is reduced from iron to merely rope...populations, as elephants, become conditioned to their State, without the ability to conceive of things being any other way.

Or so it seems today.

You make some excellent points. I agree.

 

[wingman]

I'm not taking anything for granted anymore, especially not how "exceptional" we will always be "just because we're America, and things are different here, and xxxxxx could never happen here".

I believe the above quote is key in this debate, as a senior citizen I have witness too many changes that I believe that we should be very concerned about. In an ever growing population and in my opinion a very poor public school system we seem to be a nation of greed. If we continue on our present path we will lose the quality of life we have enjoyed, simply because we have it now does not mean it cannot be taken away.

 

[longeyes]

It's all precarious, always was, always will be. No guarantees.

There are still enough of us left who get it to preserve the America we love and honor--though it may not be the America that exists today. We need to get active and we need to sort out our friends.

 

[Sam]

Exceptionalism, don't know about that. Best game in town though, by a real long shot. Very far from perfect and as many have pointed out, probably backsliding. The difference is that we can recover the lost ground and advance beyond it.

Mr. Wllm.Legrand, other than opening the figurative pie hole, what are you doing to make it better? Many BM&G few do anything about it.

Sam

 

[cz75bdneos22]

Well, far be it from me to brag and boast, but when was the last time you heard of millions upon millions of people sneaking into France or Mexico or Iran or Zimbabwe?

logistics my friend...it's pretty hard to cross the atlantic by swimming...

 

[HankB]

This ONCE WAS the greatest country in the world, as perhaps was probably the most free, but no longer

Please name the country (or countries) which you believe are greater - and why.

 

[SamlautRanger]

I personally believe America was the best, and currently is the best. But unfortunately is now on a downward spiral morally, economically, and internationally.

The Roman Empire was also at the time the greatest civilization the world had ever saw, and it too collapsed.

I predict that if things continue to go the way they are going, in 20 years China will be the worlds top leader and America will be reduced to a 2nd world nation.