Design feedback

[Jason_G]

I posted something similar to this on another forum, but it hasn't garnered much response (any, actually) yet. I'm wondering if they just suck so bad that no one wants to be the a-hole to point out the elephant in the room

I'm basically looking for a critique on these two designs.

I have made a handful of knives (stock removal), but I would consider myself a beginner in every sense of the word when it comes to making knives, and I'd like to get some input these.

Just for a sense of scale, the overall length for the big one is about 8.5", and the small one is about 5.375". These are the blanks I cut out of 3/16" 1095.


Ignore most of the Sharpie lines on the big one, I was playing around with ideas for bevels and whether to drill out areas to reduce weight.

The big one I was planning on using as a skinning/hunting/utility knife to keep on my hunting pack or on my belt. I was planning a Scandi or full flat grind for it, with a false edge on the top that would run 1/2 the blade length or so. On the handle, I ended up deviating from the original design. I was grinding it, and decided to keep some of the back to wrap around back of the pinkie finger a bit.

The small one is sort of a long story. When I was in college, I couldn't carry my EDC Benchmade Mini-Grip, because the blade exceeded the length that the university would allow, so I went to Wally World, found a cheap knife that met the max blade length that was legal for school, and bought it. It was a crap Gerber with a chisel grind. Blade geometry was not good at much, but once I put a new edge on it, it did excel at delicate slicing, in spite of the crappy steel. I thought I would try to make a better version of a chisel ground slicing knife with this design. I was thinking of putting a bottle opener on the back of the tang on this one.


So anyway, what do y'all think? I'm all ears. If it's negative, don't hold back, I can take it. These are going to be learning pieces for me, more than anything else, so if it's scrap, I won't be mad. It's only a few dollars worth of steel. The learning is the valuable part.

Jason

 

[lobo9er]

i like both. I like bottle openers on knives.
Beer and camping go well so does Beer and fishing.

 

[lobo9er]

what kind of steel are you using and how will you heat treat?

 

[Valkman]

I like them also, go ahead and make them! I'm facinated that guys can draw their designs on paper and transfer it to steel - I could never get a good design unless I drew it on the steel and just ground it and make adjustments later.

 

[Jason_G]

i like both. I like bottle openers on knives.

Thanks. Beer is like bacon, it makes most anything better.

I like them also, go ahead and make them! I'm facinated that guys can draw their designs on paper and transfer it to steel - I could never get a good design unless I drew it on the steel and just ground it and make adjustments later.

Well, what I draw on paper always ends up changing a little once I start grinding, so I know what you mean about just drawing on the steel and making adjustments. And thanks, I consider that high praise coming from yourself.

what kind of steel are you using and how will you heat treat?

1095, and I'm still debating how I'm going to do the heat treat. I don't own a heat treat oven. 1095 has worked fine for me with smaller, thinner knives, heated a shade past non-magnetic, and then quenched in canola oil. I plan on making these thicker in cross-section, though, so I don't know if canola will be fast enough. I'm really thinking about going all in and trying a brine quench, and hoping I don't get the "tink" . That means I probably ought to normalize these a few times before the final heat treat (something I've never done before), which really needs a good oven. I'm just going to do these at night and try to gauge temp from color. I also want to try clay hardening, so I might see if I can find some satanite to put on them. Never tried to get a hamon before, so we'll see. A lot of firsts for me with these knives, but like I said, it's just a few bucks worth of steel. I can do them over again if they don't turn out. I'm basically looking at these as experiments.


Jason

 

[JShirley]

I can only view them if they're attached.

J

 

[ugaarguy]

Attached it for you Mr. JS.

 

[Jason_G]

I can only view them if they're attached.

J

Sorry, John. I forgot you can't see them if they're hosted elsewhere.

Thanks for picking up my slack, ugaarguy.


Jason

 

[ugaarguy]

And Some Feedback

I like the handle higher than blade on the the bigger one. It reminds me of the ergos on some higher end kitchen knives I've used and really liked. I think it would work well on a field / utility knife, and I'd like to try it. The only thing I'd change is lowering the point with a slight drop or a little clip.

I really like the little one. Some light jimping on the spine, and the design is good to go IMO.

 

[Jason_G]

I like the handle higher than blade on the the bigger one. It reminds me of the ergos on some higher end kitchen knives I've used and really liked. I think it would work well on a field / utility knife, and I'd like to try it. The only thing I'd change is lowering the point with a slight drop or a little clip.

I really like the little one. Some light jimping on the spine, and the design is good to go IMO.

Thanks.

I came real close to drawing that bigger one out with a drop point. It's an easy change. I might draw it out that way and see if it looks better. It would make for a slightly stronger point, too. And with a false edge on top, it wouldn't loose much ability to stab, poke holes in game hide, etc.

Jason

 

[JShirley]

usaarguy and Jason, thanks.

First, I like the basic design on both.

On the first, I would sweep the tip up a little more.

On the second, I think the handle angle doesn't allow for good cutting. If the end of the handle is brought up, relative to the blade, it should work with a much better wrist angle. As it is now, only the tip can really be presented well.

John

 

[Jason_G]

On the first, I would sweep the tip up a little more.

A bit like a Persian or something?

On the second, I think the handle angle doesn't allow for good cutting. If the end of the handle is brought up, relative to the blade, it should work with a much better wrist angle. As it is now, only the tip can really be presented well.

Yep, you're right.
If you are gripping it with a full grip, the full surface of the blade can't make contact with what you're cutting, because your knuckles are in the way. Only the first half inch or so will make contact, as you said. I really had a pinch grip in mind when I was making that one, and overlooked that issue when I was designing :banghead:. If I make another one of these, I will definitely angle the handle up in relation to the cutting edge, but I will have to get bigger stock to do it. Good eye.

Or... I wonder if it would work to change the angle of the edge? Maybe angle it up towards the tip? Seems like that would accomplish the same thing, and I could still actually do that with this knife.


Jason

 

[JShirley]

Jason,

Thanks for taking the advice well- I think they both have a lot of potential, or I wouldn't have said anything. On the first, if you add a bit more belly to the blade, sweeping up (almost towards that hole in the paper), I think you'll increase your useful blade area. And it will look right. Too late on this one, but we're always improving. Hopefully.

On the second, you have to decide what you want. If you want a wicked small inverted fighter, you've got it. Otherwise, you'll have to change it. On this one, you do still have the option of shaving off a wedge of what would have been the blade. If you start from the "square" at the base of your blade, and draw a line to about where the nose begins that final drop, you'll have a smaller blade, but it'll be more useful in conventional cutting.

If you do make that cut, you'll have one more choice to make. Do you want this to be a small task knife, or a small defensive hybrid? If the former, you don't need any upper edge. If the latter, you can make a really neat "arrowhead" blade.

Hope this helps, and thanks for being brave enough to ask for advice.

Where are you getting your steel from?

John

 

[Gordon]

Top one is pretty good, to me the lower ones all suck. The 2nd one down would hook your hand like a fish on a thrust,the warncliffe would hit your fingers on a flat surface way before the blade would be parallel to it .

 

[Jason_G]

Jason,

Thanks for taking the advice well- I think they both have a lot of potential, or I wouldn't have said anything. On the first, if you add a bit more belly to the blade, sweeping up (almost towards that hole in the paper), I think you'll increase your useful blade area. And it will look right. Too late on this one, but we're always improving. Hopefully.

Yeah, I see what you're saying now. Yeah, too late to do that . Oh well. The reason I had the point lower was to keep it in line with the hand for thrusting, in case it was needed in a defensive pinch, but to be honest, having more belly would certainly be a more useful shape. I know I slice a lot more than poke with my knives.

If you do make that cut, you'll have one more choice to make. Do you want this to be a small task knife, or a small defensive hybrid? If the former, you don't need any upper edge. If the latter, you can make a really neat "arrowhead" blade.

The arrowhead idea crossed my mind when you mentioned the handle angle. Another idea I was thinking about was bringing the point higher up, and curving the belly, so that you could get sort of a backwards rocking slice motion out of it. I think I'm going to have to play around with this one.

Another idea I had: I plan on building a little paint can forge when I get my next paycheck. I wonder if I could heat it up and bend the handle into the proper angle? Never forged anything before, so I have no idea on that one.

Hope this helps, and thanks for being brave enough to ask for advice.

Where are you getting your steel from?

It helps a lot. I've been using knives my whole life (who hasn't, I guess?), but I'm new to making them. Sometimes ideas that look okay on paper don't pan out in practical use. I can usually spot most things, but it helps to get others to eye it over as well. I appreciate the help.

The steel is from Jantz. When I order more, I will probably try New Jersey Steel Baron. Supposedly he has some really good 1084. 1084 would probably be easier for me to heat treat without a controlled oven, too.

Top one is pretty good, to me the lower ones all suck. The 2nd one down would hook your hand like a fish on a thrust...

I actually meant to draw a ricasso on the top pen and paper drawing (I think that's what you're calling the second one), but wasn't thinking when I drew that bevel line all the way across. I quickly decided against the curve on the ricasso area, as well, for the reason you mentioned. Basically, the top steel blank is the top drawing after I made the corrections you mentioned at the grinder, if that makes sense.

the warncliffe would hit your fingers on a flat surface way before the blade would be parallel to it .

Yeah, you're right. The little chisel ground one at the bottom had some issues from the get-go with the handle angle. I don't know why I didn't see that before.

Oh well, like I said, these are for me to learn on more than anything else.


I'm in the middle of a scrimshaw job right now, so these might have to go on the back burner for a little while, but I really do appreciate all the input, guys.


Jason

 

[JAshley73]

Not a knife maker here, so the advice is what you paid for it.

On the top knife, the back part of the grip looks like it would crowd the pinkie-finger a bit. Only you can put it in your hand, so only you'll know if it fits or not.

And on the second (middle) drawing, be careful to bring the handle material up over the edge. You might be hitting the handle against the stone when sharpening, unless you skew the knife on the stone. They look nice however. Let us know how they work out...

 

[JShirley]

Almost all the steel I've bought has been from New Jersey Steel Baron. You should probably consider getting a 2" wide piece of 5160. It's a bargain, and definitely has the thickness to give you some wiggle room for small mistakes!

 

[Jason_G]

Almost all the steel I've bought has been from New Jersey Steel Baron. You should probably consider getting a 2" wide piece of 5160. It's a bargain, and definitely has the thickness to give you some wiggle room for small mistakes!

Yes, I will definitely be getting some wider stock next time. I thought 1.5" would be wide enough for what I wanted to do, but I felt a little constrained when I had the steel sitting in front of me. Those designs basically went from edge to edge on the stock. I think another half inch or so of wiggle room would definitely be worth the few extra dollars next time.

I also won't get my steel from Jantz again. Not to knock them as a company or anything. I wouldn't hesitate to use them for other supplies, but what they sell as 1095 bar stock is actually sheet steel that has been sheared off in a brake or something. It's nowhere near flat. To be fair though, they don't advertise it as precision ground or anything, but there is a pretty severe downward slope near the edges, where the metal was pinched off of a sheet, and it takes forever to sand it out to dead flat. I'll spend the extra few dollars for some truly flat steel next time.

John, do you prefer 5160 over 1084? I've never worked with either. The few knives I've made have been mostly O1 or 1095. Something with a more forgiving heat treat would be nice right now since I lack a real HT oven at the moment.



Edit to add:

I think I figured out a way to salvage that bottom one without losing the blade profile. If I made it a hidden tang, I could raise the angle of the handle quite a bit.




Jason

 

[JimStC]

Jason,
To answer your question to John go here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=667055

Jim

 

[Jason_G]

Jason,
To answer your question to John go here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=667055

Jim

Thanks, I didn't even see that thread.


Jason

 

[Sam1911]

I've had fine success heat-treating 1095 in corn coil. I doubt you'll have trouble.

The second shape looks awesome, but I agree with John that you need to change the handle angle to get your fingers some working room with the blade engaging whatever you're cutting.

The first blade is pretty sweet, too, but something different needs to happen to the upper edge of the tip. There are knvies that are supposed to be angular and straight-lined, and knives that are sinuous and curvy. I don't care for combining the two. I'd rather see that curve of the spine follow smooth and fair out to the tip.

Oh, and the bird's beak at the rear of the handle on that one seems a little too much. I like some positive grip on a larger knife, but this one seems small enough not to need such an aggressive "anchor" at the rear.

Really great work! Can't wait to see them done!

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Now I'm only responding from the point of view of a potential user and not a buyer of never to be used but often to be polished knives.

The top knife:

I would get the snag prone stinger at the end of the blade (choil?) rounded to blend the vertical with the horizontal of the blade edge.

I like the less committed butt of the drawing rather than the "hawk bill" like shape of the steel above it.

I'd like an ever so slightly spear point down turn at the tip.

On the bottom knife:

While not a big fan of the style in general, were it mine I would rather the plane of the blade edge and the bottom of the handle were not the same but rather the bottom of the handle were higher above the blade edge. I'd like it to a degree that press-slicing an item would not be interrupted by my fingers on the cutting plane nor would I need to do the work always on an overhang to clear my fingers.

I don't and never have liked bottle openers on fixed blade knives as all knives are bottle openers. Having them on fixed blades nearly always necessitates the knife being outa the sheath to utilize and the position this one would need to be held to open a bottle, while un sheathed and maybe not opening the first beer bottle of the day presents as a potential for a day-wrecking accident. I especially would not appreciate the snaggines of this one.

I'd like a line cutter/gut hook which a fella could sharpen with single drawings of a fine rat-tail file/cylinder stone or steel.

Aesthetically, I'd like to see the inside edge and turn of the top false edge (where the two different grinds on top touch) meet the grind line or be well away from it but not so close as though they happened to not meet in final grind.

 

[JShirley]

Sam expressed more eloquently than I did my feelings about the top knife. A lot of potential, but it wants to be a little different.

John

 

[Jason_G]

I decided that y'all were onto something about the straight spine not "jiving" with the rest of that top blank, so last night, when I was giving my eyes a rest from the scrimshaw job I was working on, I turned that blade profile into a slight bullnose with a little recurve on the belly. The bullnose and recurve are slightly more pronounced than the picture seems to show, because the shadow is sort of causing a little bit of an optical illusion in that pic.

I also decided I'd try my hand at some filework for the very first time, so instead of just adding some serrations on the spine for the thumb, I tried to do a twisted ribbon pattern. Needs some improvement, and I haven't sanded it yet, but for a first-timer working with cheap Chinese files from Harbor Freight, I think it turned out alright. I'm not quitting my day job though . I still have to work on the beveling and then I'll hand finish it and HT.

Comments/thoughts? I'd love to hear them, positive or negative.


Jason

 

[JimStC]

By no means an expert, I really like the grip relief on the first picture.
Second pic, not sure where you are headed.
Jim