desire opinions on 7.62x51 black rifles

[Strange Bob]

I am seriously considering one of these. No, I am getting one of these.


Give me pros and cons. Mag availability. Factory support. Dependability is a biggee obviously but to take that further fit and finish.

I am looking for a short to medium range rifle to hunt whitetails and hogs with. Would also double as a defensive weapon so I'm thinking no longer than 20" barrel. Here in East Texas a 300 yard shot is a rarity but I do want it to shoot tight groups out that far (if my old failing sight will hold up).

Lastly I'm keeping this under $2K . So far I've thought about and looked at : RRA LAR 8, DPMS, & Armalite. Local shop has a Bushie but I've heard there may be some issues with Bushie supporting their 7.62 weapons. I like the AR platform so not really wanting a FAL or HK (I don't think).

I'm minimally schooled on this subject and kinda learning black guns in general, so ... school me!


I'll get to the ammo thread later.


Thanks in advance.

 

[leadcounsel]

Well, save yourself a lot of heartache and searching and get either an M1A or FAL. However, neither would be ideal for hunting because most locations have mag restrictions which would be hard and expensive to find (you could just load one round in I suppose). You'd be better off getting a designated deer bolt gun.

 

[General Geoff]

If you like the AR platform, you can build up a DPMS LR-308 for under $2k that will put just about any M1A or FAL to shame, accuracy-wise. I have a friend with a 24" barreled LR-308, he's had zero malfunctions with it over the six months and several hundred rounds he's owned it. I know, anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth. But I like that rifle a lot, and if such a rifle had been available with cheap, dependable P-mags four years ago, I may have gotten an LR-308 instead of an M1A myself.

 

[Strange Bob]

I'm in Texas ... don't think hi-cap mags are a no-no here while hunting. I'll do some research.

What are the heartaches and why the M1A or FAL over the AR style?

I have several bolt guns, levers, and pumps (in "deer" calibers) and they have noticeable drawbacks as defensive weapons where I think a battle style rifle would do better.

Did you see the defensive weapon part of the post?

Thanks

 

[leadcounsel]

I did see the "defensive" part. But a deer rifle is different than a defensive rifle. Each is dedicated to its own role. Sure either "can" work in a pinch... but for a deer rifle you want one shot accuracy. For a "defensive" rifle you want practical accuracy.

And lets be realistic. While folks fantasize about using a .308 for self defense, it would be a poor choice for all but the most unusual rural situations. At 150 yards, it's not self defense any longer...

Do I hav .308 rifles. Yep. M1A, PTR91, FAL, Enfield, Savage...

I have never fired a .308 AR platform... but IMO the ONLY advantage of the AR platform is the lightweight design for the 5.56. Slap on a few pounds and it no longer has the advantages... the M1A and the FAL are head and shoulders more ergonomic, reliable, and better rifles. The AR platform's huge disadvantage is that it dumps dirty gases into the bolt and star chamber. No thanks. I can tolerate it for the tradeoff of the 5.56 lightweight rifle, but not for a .308 where the others shine...

 

[bergmen]

Springfield M1A Walnut Scout Squad

This:

Just my opinion, haven't shot a 7.62 AR platform rifle, but I do love my M1A.

Dan

 

[RX-178]

At 150 yards, it's not self defense any longer...

With all due respect, I submit that if someone is 150 yards away and shooting at me, it would still be self defense to shoot back, however unlikely that scenario is.

That being said, I think your priority should be deer first, defense second, and it sounds like that's already what your mindset is.

It's not on your list, but I went with the PTR-91, which at the time was $1000 even. The price was my main consideration at the time.

Magazine availability is almost comical, with 20 round magazines available for $1 each at CTD the last time I browsed that site, and 5 round 'PSG-1' magazines aren't too hard to find either.

In my experience it's every bit as durable as an FAL, although ergonomically I'd say it's one of the least comfortable .308 black rifles to operate (position of the charging handle, size and position of the safety, the position of the side button magazine release, it's all pretty bad by modern standards).

Factory support was excellent at the time I purchased it, but I've heard that the company has changed hands. I HAVEN'T heard that the customer service has lessened, I really haven't heard either way. Aftermarket support though, is excellent still (I recommend Bill Springfield).

The AR-pattern 308s probably have the best ergonomics, and are the lightest. Would also be easy to free-float for accuracy. They're probably the most practical choice nowadays.

 

[wayne in boca]

I have a DPMS AP4 carbine with a 16" barrel that is pretty much perfect for what you describe.It has a 19 round magazine and a freefloated barrel and will shoot bullseyes all day long. Just recently got an Armalite AR10 with a flat top and a 20" chrome-lined barrel.It would do the trick too.I would bring either one of them anywhere.Easy to scope and accurate,and will really put out some fire if you want or need to.

 

[madcratebuilder]

A 16" .308 platform would be a good choice. There is a wide price range depending on brand, great aftermarket support for custom parts. Accuracy is great, these can get heavy with optics and a longer barrel.

DPMS seems to be the most popular brand, #1 low cost, #2 uses Pmags (cheap). The ArmaLite styles use modified M14 mags and cost about $5 more than Pmags.

I have both AR10's and M1A's, I think for hunting a fiberglass stocked M1A would be my choice and for long range shooting the AR10. The AR10 is just a bit heavy for a hunting rifle, although a 16" can be kept pretty light compared to my 20 and 21" rifles.

 

[Strange Bob]

"And lets be realistic. While folks fantasize about using a .308 for self defense, it would be a poor choice for all but the most unusual rural situations. At 150 yards, it's not self defense any longer... "



I do live very rural. Most response times out here range from 15-20 minutes (LEO) to 30 min+ (EMS). Its Texas as I said(lethal force can be used in protection of life, limb, and property), I have younger children, goods and stock, and would be at the mercy of any intruder(s) if not prepared.

Do I fantasize? No, more like nightmares and scary thoughts. I am the deterrent on my place and any tool upgrades would be made to enhance my capabilities. This wouldn't be so much an issue if I lived next door to a major city PD in an uber urban environment. I do have the HD shotty(s) and a few pistols (semi and wheel guns) so I feel confident that FOF is covered as much as reasonably possible.


I do have the deer, hog, and coyote possibilities and we do consume the deer/hog tissue as opportunity presents itself. So I guess I should have expounded on my situation(s) to make suggestions more clear. Hope this will help y'all put yourselves in my shoes when making suggestions. Also I do have a 5.56/.223 black rifle so I wanted to stick to that design.

Thanks!

Bob

 

[TexasRifleman]

I'm in Texas ... don't think hi-cap mags are a no-no here while hunting. I'll do some research.

Not a problem for hunting in Texas.

As for a .308 for self defense, or any firearm for self defense for that matter, ammo choice is as important as caliber.

.308 FMJ is going to have vastly different performance than something like the 110gr TAP ammo.

I would have no issues with using a .308 rifle in the home with 110gr TAP.

 

[Tirod]

I finally abandoned an interest in .308. Having shot a HK91 and used it hunting for over 20 years, it came back to exactly what researchers found out 50 years ago. Across the board, they are all heavier than most like, have enough recoil to cause the shooter to have to decide to do so, and really have more power than necessary for the job.

Hunting, especially deer hunting, is an under 250m game, mostly less than 125. Even in open country, deer tend to stay in waterway brush and depressions, or thicker cover. Medium range shots are more likely if enough scouting and terrain allow, but they really are the subject of experts - usually with dramatic camera footage, which is really their entire point. They emphasize the unusual. Considering the .30-30 has been the most popular cartridge for over 100 years since it's introduction, the range and ballistics support what most find useful - under 250m in a lightweight carbine.

If .308 is still preferred, the most versatile gun would be an AR10 variant. They have the best control layout, integrate an optics rail that works, use some of the same standard parts of the AR15, and have a lot of similar options because of it. They reduce the weight factor by eliminating the entire piston and operating rod, offer superior accuracy from the lightweight barrel extension design, can be free floated more easily than most others, and have a modular design that allows a lot more options to kit it to the best configuration.

A 16" barrel, flattop upper, 2x7 scope, with fixed stock, and tubular free float would be good features for hunting. That's exactly what a lot of AR10 makers offer, most are similar, although some makers are more proprietary with the design. There isn't a basic milspec pattern they adhere to.

Most of the other choices are second rate curios designed as a reaction to assault weapons, attempting a veneer of similar looks with serious drawbacks still left. Floppy bolt covers, little ability to mount optics over the bolt, exposed op rods, wood furniture, and gunsmith only repairs leave little to be desired. They are nice given what they can do, but they don't do it all, or a well as the AR.

It's why it's the most copied design in long arms today, from the BLR lever action (barrel extension and unstressed receiver,) to the Blaser (collet action bolt locking in a barrel extension, an evolutionary bolt AR.)

Might as well have it all.

 

[amprecon]

A 20" RRA LAR-8 is the only .308 rifle I own now, it is easily scoped, ergonomic, reliable (so far), accurate and jives with my RRA LAR-6

I had two .308 rifles at one time, one was my dream rifle at one time, a SA M1A which I scoped and didn't like, so I took the scope off. Then I bought a bolt action Remington SPS Tactical bolt action and put a scope on it. Then I thought to myself, why two rifles, when one could do the job of both, and so here is my current situation, and I am satisfied with it.

 

[Zerodefect]

The LMT .308 is working very well for the British forces. I'd look at one of those.

Larues OBR is insane accurate. And there is an OBR predator out now that is lighter.

Both of those accept the big Magpul Pmags which I would classify as a must have.

 

[JustinJ]

I've got a DPMS LR308 with a 16" barrel. I got it when they first came out. It had some feeding issues but was due to one of the factory mags. Its a decent rifle with fairly good accuracy but i wouldnt take it to war. If you're in East TX you should definitely check out Independence Arms in Brenham. They have crazy good prices and will be more than worth the drive. I live two hours away but get out there whenever i can.

Another option to consider is a Saiga 308. Ive got one and would make a great hunting/defensive rifle in converted form except the mags are so damned expensive.

 

[Frankl03]

DPMS, Armalite, Bushmaster, RRA 308 ARs are all in the $1000 to $1200 range. I would get a 16 inch barrel with a free float handgaurd for ease of carry for hunting. I have one of the new Bushmasters with a 16 inch barrel I plan to hunt with.

Unlike the Fals, M1As and Saigas 308 ARs can be sub moa with the right ammo or handloads. I'm sure you spend enough on an M1A/M14 you can make it sub moa.

Classic arms has a 16 inch slabside (no forward assist or dust cover) DPMS 308 AR flat top for $899

 

[MachIVshooter]

I like my Armalite AR-10A2C, and use it for many things, including the purposes you've mentioned.



Average accuracy is about 1.5 MOA, though with handloading and sandbags I've been able to get it very close to MOA.

 

[mljdeckard]

The tie-breaker for me is that Magpul now makes Pmags for the KAC/DPMS pattern rifles. Buy or build a lower, and you can run uppers in .308, .243, 7mm-08, or .260 as well with the same magazines.

 

[Cosmoline]

Out of curiosity, how are the different platform with heavy bullets? Twist aside, are there any choices that will get battered badly if you load heavy?

 

[Double Vision]

This:



Just my opinion, haven't shot a 7.62 AR platform rifle, but I do love my M1A.

Same here!

 

[LowerLeft]

Got to check out a DPMS LR-308B with an 18 inch bull barrel. It was a little on the heavy side, but that was due to all stock stuff... Seemed to be easy enough to break apart and swap to minimize weight issues. But overall, I was pretty excited about it. That being said, yeah, you can get lighter and all that. But for that all around purpose you're speaking of, I could put my money into the DPMS and be totally happy. As for the MOA - that's gonna depend more on you, I know they always talk about the equipment and measurements and all that but if you practice and do it right, you can get .5 out of it....

Just my 2 cents!

 

[Cyborg]

FNAR Anyone?

I haven't seen anyone posting about FN Herstal's nice black FNAR. Handles BOTH .308 Win AND 7.62X51 (not all will take both, most want one or the other) and CDNN Sports was selling them for approx. $1,100.

The FNAR is a 1 MOA rifle that with practice can do sub 1MOA groups. It doesn't come with iron sights but it has a top rail near you and bottom and side rails on the forearm.

I love mine. Recoil isn't as bad as some make it out to be. A muzzle brake will take care of that as well as muzzle climb.

Two negatives about .308s. 1) ammo is expensive. You can buy surplus German ammo for around $0.40/round but otherwise it appears to me that it starts out around $0.60/round and GOES UP.

Mags for the FNAR are a touch pricey. Best I've seen online is $45 a piece. That is the same whether you buy a 5rnd, 10rnd or 20rnd mag.

The up side is that I am reliably informed that with the right ammo it will drop anything in North America - including elk, moose and grizzlies (yeah, I wondered about grizz but the instructor at the Appleseed weekend swore one of his shooting buddies has taken one with a .308). It will definitely put paid to any varmint in Texas. Heaven forfend the people attacking your home should be wearing body armor but even so what a .308 won't penetrate outright it will render hors de combat for a good while. I sincerely hope things never get so far into the dumper that I am throwing lead at two legged critters.

 

[Motega]

I just went through this... I have an AR15 .223... as stated choices are FAL vs. M1A. I went FAL b/c of ease of disassembly/cpst/replacement part(s).
Don't know much about the m1A but I learned the FAL in a week and I am mechanically retarded. I even changed the safet selector (failed first try but OK now).
If you plan on fancy optics go m1A... not happy with my opitics setup (I have an ACOG) on my FAL.
Also, to be even more specific, I'd search for a good price on a used military FAL vs. new. Or go to FALFILES and get in touch with one of the gunsmiths that specialize and have them put together a FAL for you.
AS said ammo is expensive and now that summer is coming only going to go up I assume... it's been steadily climbing for weeks.

 

[MachIVshooter]

DPMS LR-308B with an 18 inch bull barrel..................... As for the MOA - that's gonna depend more on you, I know they always talk about the equipment and measurements and all that but if you practice and do it right, you can get .5 out of it....

I'll believe it when I see it. My sister's 24" heavy fluted stainless DPMS in .204 runs right at MOA. Very few production rifles in "working man" price range (which includes ~$1,500 AR-10's) are capable of consistent .5 MOA, even with handloads. Best I've had from factory have been .67 MOA avg. with taylored handloads. That's my Remington 700 LVSF, followed by .72 and .76 with the Howa M1500 .223 and Ruger M77 varmint .220 Swift.

Maybe my AR-50 could at 100, but I don't shoot it that close in. It's .9 at 600 yards. And it's also not in the same league.

 

[Cryogaijin]

Might also consider a .308 Saiga. I'm quite pleased with mine, and it customizes nicely. And it is quite evil, and quite black.