Did many returning Vietnam vets buy the Colt AR-15?

[MatthewVanitas]

Random question, following on my earlier thread about SP-1 marketing.

When Vietnam veterans returned to the States and were discharged, was there any trend of veterans purchasing the relatively new Colt AR-15s?

I'd run a previous thread on returning Iraq vets, and from that thread and personal experience, it seems that Iraq vets are as likely to buy any other rifle vice the AR (know a few happy FAL and M1A Socom buyers).

I know that the M16 had a pretty mixed rep early on, for a huge variety of reasons, and many books have been written on the issue, so I don't want to distract the thread too much with debates as to how bad the early M16 was.

So if anyone bought an AR after returning from Vietnam, or had friends or relatves who did, I'd be curious to hear it. Thanks, -MV

 

[Dienekes]

Not that I am aware of. I was issued the original A1 but as an AF type in SEA never had to use it in combat. Spent a lot of nights with it out in the dark and all I can say is that it was a bit more comforting than my previously issued M2 carbine. Both then (as a kid) and now (as a retired LEO and no longer a kid) I much preferred the M14/M1A.

Did own a CAR-15 for a few years as an LEO and it was a better weapon than the old M16A1, but of course had its range limitations. However it was a honey for some situations and very handy. That was before all the crap was invented to load it down to BAR weight.) The intimidation factor was useful. The one thing I never have liked about the AR is the time and effort to clean them properly. I can clean my M1A well in ten minutes whereas the AR is about a 45 minute project with no distractions.

Disposed of the CAR when I retired but am thinking of building up another "just because", and maybe a couple for my kids. In an increasingly squirrelly world it can do no harm.

But am I fond of the AR? Not particularly.

 

[Roudy]

I spent some time in South Vietnam and was issued an M16. Before that I was issued an M1 and also an M14.

I have never had the desire to own an M16 style rifle and here is the reason:

I used to hunt varmits (ground hogs) occasionally I didn't shoot as well as I hoped to......When using the .223 occasionally the misplaced shot resulted in the ground hog getting away. But, when I was using a 30-06 the ground hog NEVER got away.

I've read and heard all the explanations about how much more effective the .223 is in a combat situation, I simply don't believe it.

 

[Gordon]

I'm with Roudy, in experience and opinion. However I started carrying a Car-15 in the mid 70's as a 'carbine' , and it remains, to this day, the best CARBINE. It is NO rifle though!

 

[swingset]

I've only known 2 Vietnam vets, personally, and both are avid AR-15 shooters...and the reason I own them now.

 

[lawson]

one of the vets i know absolutely loves the m16/AR15, he used it in both vietnam and in the middle east (USMC Force Recon), and used an AR15 in his law enforcement career.

the other one used it in vietnam, reluctantly giving up his M14 for it. he never liked the M16, and will never own an AR15.

 

[ALASKACAJUN]

My uncle spent 3 tours in Nam, he owns about 7- AK-47's and zero AR's, he said he found an AK in a trail that had been used to move heavy equipment. It had been run over and looked as though it had been there "for about a year" (his words) One of his men kicked the bolt open 2 or 3 times until a round cycled. Then he fired it a couple of times! Until it jammed, then he kicked open the bolt again put it on FA and shot the rest of the mag..... The first rifle I ever purchased was an AK varient, I've owned both AR and AK, but my uncle would not own anything other thatn the AK!

I was in the military too, the Air Force, I never had to put my life on the line and depend on an AR! I can only imagine what it would be like to be under fire and have whatever you were carrying Jam on you....

- Clint

 

[palerider1]

i was too young to be in Viet Nam, but my dad was a drill instructor at ft Dix NJ during the war. he favored the m1garand. i have heard many stories on the history channel that the m-16 was very undependable when it came out and that many guys lost their lives in battles because of jams, so i would imagine that the guys who served from up until probably 1969 preferred not to own one.

 

[spartacus2002]

Somewhat OT, but the latest issue of Small Arms Review has an article detailing all the mechanical reasons for the original M16's flaws, and what was done to correct them.

 

[MechAg94]

My Dad has an sp1 that he picked up in the 80's, but his first love was the M14 that he trained with. The main advantages he has mentioned for the .223 were the ability to carry a LOT more ammo he could shoot his carbine (the one he owns now) one handed on the move. He said he would rather go hungry than run out of ammo.

 

[thatguy]

I had 3 friends who served in VN and one did buy an AR15 upon his return. He liked the M16 and he liked the AR15. He was in the 82nd, BTW.

The other two were Marines and one simply wasn't into guns and didn't own any after leaving the service. He had carried the M60 (he was a 6'4", 240 pound college football player so they gave him the big gun to lug around) but was never a sport shooter. The last was a hunter and had no interest in military-styled guns. His favorites were a sporterized 1903 for deer hunting and a Ruger .357 Blackhawk.

 

[MM]

Alaskacajun,
Your uncle is a very lucky man, we were taught, for many good reasons, never to mess with ANYTHING you found in the woods. Step over it, point it out to your bud and leave it alone.
SatCong

 

[rWt]

I had occasion to use one in Viet Nam.

Never wanted to own one.

 

[miragetex]

I was in the Army in RVN March 69 to March 70, and had no problems with my M16, although in fairness I was never involved in a major firefight (and I'm not complaining about that!). I have two ARs, bought both of them within a few years after returning. The first is an SP-1 with 4 digit serial number and three-prong flash hider, and the second (bought several years later) is a Colt collapsing stock carbine. Both are good shooters, both will hold around 2 inch groups with US mil ammo. Other than the occasional bad magazine, both are reliable. About ten years ago I bought a Professional Ordinance Carbon 15 (since taken over by Bushmaster) - not exactly a clone, but generally similar, and the light weight is pretty neat, but it's never been reliable enough to make me comfortable with it. The 223 / 308 caliber debate will only end when we move on to ray guns, I suppose.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

A lot of people introduced to shooting in the military,
as civilians will often want a gun that they are familar
with, which has often meant WWI veterans seeking
Springfields, WWII veterans seeking M1s, and VietNam
vets seeking ARs. No retraining necessary.

 

[Roudy]

Carl N.

I think you are right about wanting a rifle you are most familiar with. Even though I used an M16 in RVN I carried the M14 for the majority of my time in the service. I used a match grade M1 in rifle matches and found it very accurate, but if the need ever arose to go into a life or death situation I think the M14 would be my first choice.....the one I'm most familiar with.

Roudy

 

[MatthewVanitas]

A lot of people introduced to shooting in the military,
as civilians will often want a gun that they are familar
with, which has often meant WWI veterans seeking
Springfields, WWII veterans seeking M1s, and VietNam
vets seeking ARs. No retraining necessary.

That may definitely be true for WWI, WWII, and Korea, but I have a partially dissenting opinion on Iraq vets.

My overall impression of Marines that I've worked with, falling into three basic groups:

a) No interest in getting a gun in the civilian world
b) No major civ gun experience, want to buy an M9 (Beretta 92FS) and/or AR-15
c) "Gun buff" guys who want a FAL or M1A, and a .45

Group a) is pretty sizeable, group c) is decent sized, not a lot of folks in group b).

I'm not necessarily saying that the group c) guys or correct, or even know a whole lot about guns, but among most Marines who consider themselves gunfolks, there's a definite mythos to the .45 and .308. This doesn't necessarily have any correlation with any real-world dissatisfaction with the issue gear, just that most Marines are subject to the same Internet commandoism and gun-rag hype that the rest of us are.

I'm splitting the different, with a Gov't model .45 and a Dissipator AR-15, but all my combat experience revolved around a radio tying me into a M198 battery, so no personal like/dislike of real-world ballistics of either platform. Definite like for the stopping power of the 155mm.

-MV

 

[Roadkill]

I got an AR15 only after I got every other military gun I wanted first. Wasn't really impressed with them in Vietnam, still am not now. Its my coyote gun. Even with handload softpoints I still have about one in three coyotes run after a solid hit. I have never lost one but 75% hit with the .223 required second shots. I picked up a magazine of fmj by accident once, hit a medium sized male at 30 yds head on, entered his front left chest and exited on the back of his ribcage on the right. He jumped, spun, and ran. Collapsed about 100 yds down the trail. Mine is a Colt Sporter II Govt series, supposedly as close to the government models as they make for civilians.

rk

 

[106rr]

I Corps May 67 - May 68 -196th Light Infantry Brigade. Have no desire to own an AR. They were unreliable and so was the company who manufactured them. Colt faked the QC on these rifles for many years. Please remember that Colt has changed hands many times.
Sadly, I have met more combat Viet Vets who won't own any gun. Few combat vets would want to own an AR from that era.
Most USAF bases kept the M16s in a locked conex container between the barracks. In case of attack, one guy with a key was supposed to run outside an unlock it. I thought they were kidding when they told me that so I checked it out in the summer of 67. It was true in Danang. In 67, the USAF AP in Danang still carried S&W 38 special Combat masterpiece revolvers and drove the old style jeeps not the M151s that we used. The Air Force would have a different opinion of the AR than the grunts.

 

[Byron]

I was infantry in Nam 68-69(3/8th Inf,4th Inf Div).I liked my 16. It never failed me and the M193 round was very lethal.I kept mine clean as any infantryman should.After getting back,graduating from college and getting a job, I got an SP. I also have a A2,HBAR. Byron

 

[106rr]

Byron;
There is a difference in the time we fought. By Jan 68 the IG came to our area of operations (the mountains between Danang and Laos) and ordered cleaning kits for each soldier. Our only kits were from stateside sources. They issued new buffer groups and then new bolts. Each time they swore that "this" was the solution. More men went on to die with burned fingers and jammed weapons. We were ordered not to attempt to contact our legislators or speak to a reporter about the rifles.
They then issued a new lubricant called LSA and more men died. Comic books showing a buxom blonde cleaning an M16 for those with low reading levels were a big help. She said we should clean our M16s five times a day. We all laughed at that one. We thought maybe she would distract the NVA while we took a cleaning break. Finally they issued us new rifles and there was an immediate improvement. We had some joint ops in the highlands with the 4th ID, good outfit, good men.

 

[Byron]

106RR Welcome Home. I was in Basic the Spring of 68. I recall "volunteers" from the Basic Training Co went for several days to the range.they simply fired one magazine after another.Once in Nam, I opened a case of ammo and on it was stamped "Dupont Powder". That for some reason stayed with me not realizing the powder was an issue. Our bolts were chrome and this looked odd in the rifle. in AIT, we used LSA and were taught to use lightly. I never knew of anyone cleaning a 16 5 times a day. I guess the REMF's thought we had all the time in the world. I recall the comic books.We had one guy who could not read or write. He took care of his rifle well not due to the comic book but self taught.(by the way, I have a C Ration Tabasco cook book). I was in the Central Highlands. We were Kontum,Dakto,Polei Kleng a lot. Was wounded in Ane Khe.We too were on the border of Cambodia a lot and in March of 69 were close on the Cambodian/Laos border and was hit hard by the 66th NVA.
Thanks for the words on the 4TH. It is now good to see my Brothers after so many years,we are gray, a bit heavy and all hard of hearing but we stand still.
Byron

 

[Essex County]

This may not help much, as I never went to South East Asia, but I was an Air Force troop 66 thru 70. In basic we shot the most mal-functioning M 16's on the planet. When I got to my permenat duty station the .30 cal M2 was what we were issued. I was very gun oriented before the service and I knew it's limitations. Neverless I grew to love the damn thing. I wasn't issued an M16 until I was overseas and I had about five months to go. When I was discharged the first rifle I bought was an M 1 carbine...........Because it was FUN. Now I have three AR's, but I still shoot the carbine a lot......Essex

 

[SemiAutoMan]

Only VN vet I know is my father in law and he bought several guns when he came back including an AR15, UZI, and an SKS.. I have never had the pleasure of shooting an AR15 yet I have wanted one for many years.