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Jim Watson
Member
Not for any humanly significant value of "eventually." I guess if you shot it every day and replaced other parts as needed, it could crack. More likely outlast you.
The current crop of S&W K frames are beefed up but for long continued use with heavy loads, the L frame family would be better, or even an N frame. Or a Ruger.
The current crop of S&W K frames are beefed up but for long continued use with heavy loads, the L frame family would be better, or even an N frame. Or a Ruger.
Smaug
Member
I read here where one member had an original Colt Cobra (aluminum frame) and he said he ruined it by stretching it out with +P loads.
Makes me worry a bit about my LCR. (though it's rated for +P, I can't imagine wanting to shoot that much +P through it to stretch it out)
Makes me worry a bit about my LCR. (though it's rated for +P, I can't imagine wanting to shoot that much +P through it to stretch it out)
Might have been some +P+ rounds in that mix. That will sure mess up an aluminum frame revolver.
Aluminum frame revolvers: carry much, shoot little.
Say I use it for competition, 300k rounds later will it most likely crack the frame?
mcb
Member
If you can afford to shoot 300,000 rounds of ammo you can afford to buy a new revolver or two or three every once in awhile. Even if your reloading 38 Special @ $.15/rd (not easy to do in today's economy) that is $45,000 in ammo. Buy a new gun every once in awhile just to keep things interesting....
ie you overthinking this just go shoot and enjoy!
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Jim Watson
Member
Well, but he is in California where he has to buy ammo from a dealer and guns off a roster.
But you have to be reasonable.
I think by 300000, you might well have replaced everything else even if the frame had not broken.
When Beretta started selling Manurhin revolvers here, we got all sorts of reports of their superior durability in French use.
But you have to be reasonable.
I think by 300000, you might well have replaced everything else even if the frame had not broken.
When Beretta started selling Manurhin revolvers here, we got all sorts of reports of their superior durability in French use.
Realistically what difference does it matter? It's always people new to shooting that are most concerned about wearing out a gun. The people that shoot 10,000+ rounds per year realize that the cost of the gun is irrelevant. At the point where you've spent $10,000+ on ammo, a $750 gun with a little wear on it is badge of honor.
Some of the questions posed are completely unanswerable.
If you manage to crack the frame on a GP100 chambered in .22lr, I'll buy you a beer.
Mizar
Member
Gun1, do you actually have an idea what time will it take to shoot the said 300 000 rounds? Just a quick math - if you shoot 100 rounds every day, it will take you more than 8 years to reach that count... Every single day, 100 rounds. And by the time you have reached that amount, frame stretching will be the least of your worries.
BLACKHAWKNJ
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The only references I have read about frame stretch on a revolver have been about S&W M-19s, from firing too many magnum loads in what is basically a 38 Special frame.
mcb
Member
But that is not frame stretch that is most often forcing cone splitting. Steel K-frame are not likely to stretch.
Failure of the frame is not likely in a modern revolver. The exception might be very lightweight revolvers that are shot excessively with very hot loads.
If you want to shoot your guns, just go out and do it. Buy good quality ammunition and maintain your guns properly and if the guns are good quality they will last a very long time. If you are worried about the possibility of your guns wearing out, buy a spare for the ones you shoot a lot. You probably won't ever need them unless you have a lot of money for ammo and range fees and a lot of time, but at least it will give you some peace of mind.
__steve__
Member
SS revolvers seem to flex quite a bit. I get contact marks on both the strap and cylinder, which has about 0.010” clearance
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Most people who talk about "stretch" and other matters involving fracture mechanics don't have much of an understanding of what fracture mechanics is and what it involves. In fact, even those who do have an education in the subject may only understand the basics sufficiently to understand a specific application as opposed to the kind of understanding that others who dwell in actually determining the actual values for all the various parameters that go into it for any given material sample and then how that material is actually used in specific applications.
Fracture mechanics is the study of crack propagation in materials and uses various analytical methods to quantifiably define certain characteristics of the material. There are various simple tests that could be discussed, but it rapidly gets very complicated the deeper you go.
Here are a few terms:
Fracture toughness. Put simply, this is a material's ability to resist crack propagation when under a tensile stress by plastic deformation. Bending, in other words, instead of snapping.
Tensile stress. This is a stress that is felt when under tension, or when a force is applied which pulls a material apart (stretches it).
Compressive stress. This is a stress that is felt when under compression, or when a force is applied which squeezes the material together.
Brittle fracture. This is the sudden, catastrophic failure of a metal with a pre-existing flaw when under a tensile stress with little or no plastic deformation. Basically, it "snaps".
Ductile failure. Failure of a metal under stress by plastic deformation. It "bends".
Creep. A metal deformation that occurs at stresses below the yield strength of a metal, usually under elevated temperatures. It's a form of plastic deformation.
In general, very hard materials are very strong. But when they DO fail, it's with little warning and it's a catastrophic failure: It snaps. Such materials are said to have a "low fracture toughness".
To complicate things, a material's ability to resist failure by either plastic deformation or by brittle fracture can change over the life of the material. Here are a few reasons:
- Cyclic stresses. Materials that have a high amount of cyclic stress will change the size of the pre-existing flaws (cracks) with the metal's crystalline structure. This changes the metal's fracture characteristics. Cyclic stresses can be caused by physical application of tensile and compressive stress by various means, or by cyclc temperature, for example.
- Material temperature. Heat/cold can directly affect a material's ability to resist brittle fracture or plastic deformation.
- Damage to the material. This can be caused by physical means, such as dropping, impacts with other hard objects, cutting, etc. Anything which either deforms, cuts, corrodes, chemical contaminates, or introduces/enlarges cracks in the material.
Quantifying the stresses any given piece in a structure sees is exceptionally difficult. Hell, it's borderline magic. In many cases, such in depth studies are not required. But for components and structures that are approaching physical limitations, it's very important to understand these stresses in order to ensure they are not exceeded during their design lifetime. Otherwise you get something like what happened to the SS Schenectady (picture below), a brand new ship built in WWII which literally broke in half after sea trials while tied up next to a pier.
OK...now with all the really cool engineering mumbo-jumbo behind us, the good news is that any quality firearm built, when operated within its design limits, should have a cyclic lifetime that is measured in decades, and even generations, of normal use...even very heavy use. By the time you get to any kind of structural failure point, you will have LONG SINCE "gotten your money's worth" out of the firearm. Like a car or truck, some minor failures will likely happen at some point. If you have it long enough, you may simply "wear it out" in some way. Sometimes the minor failures or wear issues can be repaired and you can add many more years to the life of the firearm. Even so, nothing lasts forever and if you use it long enough EVENTUALLY it's going to fail in some manner which will make it not worth repairing.
So my opinion is to simply take care of your firearms as you would normally, which includes cleaning, lubricating, not abusing them, not loading ammunition beyond established standards, etc. And have fun shooting them as often as you wish.
SS Schenectady picture I promised:
Varminterror
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An odd series of threads from this OP, semiauto rail galling last week, now revolver frame stretch.
Seems like he needs to stop listening so closely to this particular “gunsmith.”
Seems like he needs to stop listening so closely to this particular “gunsmith.”
ontarget
Member
I wish I had enough ammo to answer the OP's question. And maybe a few more years left to shoot it all.
Steel will flex and stretch, but unless it is flexed/stretched past its yield point, it will come back to the original shape. Also, as long as it is not flexed/stretched past its fatigue/endurance limit, it can be flexed/stretched as many times as desired (i.e. an indefinite number of times) but will never crack/break/fail.
Aluminum will flex and stretch and will also return to its original shape if it is not flexed/stretched past its yield point. The difference is that aluminum has no fatigue/endurance limit. No matter how small the amplitude of the flex/stretch, aluminum will eventually crack/break/fail if there are enough repetitions. HOWEVER, it will take many, many repetitions before that happens if the amplitude of each flex/stretch is very small.
New shooters are worried about wearing out their guns. Old shooters are worried that they won't ever be able to wear out their guns.
mcb
Member
Very well stated. And your paragraph about aluminum is the exact reason airplane airframes have a finite life span.
Correct. What is interesting is that the lifespan can be quite long depending on the original design and use level. For example, the C-135 which went out of production in the early 1960s has been certified (with proper maintenance) past 2040. They were really overbuilt for one thing, and for another, they don't go through nearly as many takeoff/land cycles as a commercial jet.
Tallball
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This revolver was made in 1915-16. I don't know how many owners it's had.
I don't know how many rounds have been fired through it, but from examining it, the answer seems to be A LOT.
The frame is not stretched. It's a little loose, but it still goes bang.
A good steel revolver will outlast the average owner, no problem.
I don't know how many rounds have been fired through it, but from examining it, the answer seems to be A LOT.
The frame is not stretched. It's a little loose, but it still goes bang.
A good steel revolver will outlast the average owner, no problem.
jmorris
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I doubt it. What game are you competing in? Most are games where people are using the best equipment being fed the weakest ammunition they are allowed to. Some firearms have known weaknesses but most of the “cracked frame” revolvers I have seen were from one shot that shouldn’t have ever been.
I would bet $1000 that neither of these have anywhere near 300k through them (probably closer to 300 or less) but I bet both have fired at least one reloaded round.
Let that sink in and you will know where to focus your attention.
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doubleh
Member
As long as it doesn't reach plastic distortion it will remain the same. Elastic distortion can cause fatigue failure. How quickly that happens depends on the severity and number of times it happens.
What causes elastic distortion?
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