Do You Think BATFE Baits People On THR Or Other Forums?

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On another forum, someone from my area organized a get together with shooting open to all members from the area. About a dozen legit folks and an ATFE informer arrived. The ATFE guy asked about which "machineguns we owned", "could we convert his AK to a machinegun?" , "offered to pay top dollar have it done", tried to pry in folks locked cars and several very questionable things. All with a gun he bought that day at the nearest gun store to our location.

He was very questionable and had posted three times on the forum, all after the invite was posted. I do not doubt they do all sorts of questionable things regarding firearms, especially after they started CHARGING folks with malfunctioning weapons that go full auto with owning "illegal machineguns". Their argument for that was that the law does not make exceptions for broken guns.

If you have to dig that hard for convictions you are no friend to honesty or honest gun owners. I'm sure they are out here and I'm sure there are people doing questionable things on the net. I'm hoping they limit themselves to actual criminals and they are not scamming some poor uninformed guy selling his rifle for rent money.
 
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dougw47 said:
I worked at a gunshop near here, my ex-son in law, a drug addict an wife-beater, filled out a 4473 to buy a gun there on my day off...because he knew I would have thrown him out. The records were not apparently up to date because he had pled guilty domestic violence and had a court restraining order.

He was delayed, and the NICS people did not call back within the 3 days to deny him. He came back in on my next day off and was given the gun.

That next week, and agent from the BATFE called. I answered the phone and she asked about the transaction...when she gave me his name, I was totally astonished...pulled the papers, found that he had received the gun and gave her a lot of information about this fine young man that she did not have.

I told her where to find him and where he worked...she said they would find him and pick up the gun. A month later, she came to the shop and we talked. They had not taken any action as of that date, but she gave me her card, took my home phone number and told me that she would contact me and let me know the disposition of the case.

Six months later and the bum was still running around...so I called her. Imagine my surprise when she tells me that they had decided to drop the prosecution.

A convicted felon, lies on a 4473, buys a gun illegally...the BATFE has a slam dunk case...and they let him slide! All I could figure is the did not want to admit that NICS screwed up, decided so what if a another felon has a gun.

It must be nice to be able to decide which laws to sellectively enforce. If our paperwork had not been in order, with the name and brady number of the clerk that processed the call and form...they probably would have pulled our license.

I would not be a bit surprised if they don't have a crew watching these boards, with the specific intent of making criminals out of un-suspecting gun owners. I know for a fact they are not interest in catching criminals!

Be warned!
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I'll do you one better.

A local PD called me asking if a firearm recovered from a domestic violence call was too short.

It was. I said call ATF on Monday since it was a weekend and have them sent to jail.

They did not prosecute. Reason: Shotgun with the sawed off barrel was not assembled even though it was next to the reciever, it wasn't put together = not an unregistered SBS.
 
I'd be pretty darn stupid if I didn't think they were, at least, watching us.
 
I know for a fact they've gone to our biggest gun shows here in Tulsa and tried to set up dealers with similar propositions.

"I'm from out of state but I can pay cash."
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That wasn't BATFE--it was "20/20." ;)
 
You need to understand that in sting operations the LEO has to prove that the defendant was predisposed to commit the crime. He needs to show that the defendant was inclined to commit the crime anyway even if they didn't respond to an offer from a LEO.
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Oh, but didn't you know?! Even buying a gun means you intend to commit mass murder!!!!! :rolleyes: :banghead:
 
I have had several people with 0 or 1 posts from bordering states want to buy my 40c, since I posted it. I am asking for a WI ftf transaction, but would deliver to a local FFL in their state. Investigators investigate.
 
I actually do not mind any involvement from the BATF here so long as their "traps" are totally against the law. Heck man, anybody who has ever purchased a firearm knows that it is a BIG FREAKING DEAL. And that should be 99.99% of us here on THR right? So assuming your not A: An Idiot or B: Someone up to no good, you really shouldn't have to worry much with the exception of that .01%. And in that instance I say there was something that was in need of being changed anyway, probably the education level of the person involved on firearms law.

Am I saying its not sneaky...HELL NO.
Am I saying it might keep people from buying illegal firearms...MAYBE.
Am I saying it might keep someone from breaking into my house to steal my weapons...MAYBE.

In my opinion this kind of stuff will "HELP" keep some gun crimes low, mostly theft. Its kinda like a police bait car or bait prostitute. Both of those things help keep that kind of crime somewhat suppressed.

I have no problem living under the law so long as the law isn't unreasonable and doesn't deprive me of my constitutional rights. Period.
 
I've been "baited" at a local gunshow where a friend and I were selling a deceased buddy's guns for the family. No big deal, the guy asked us to sell a rifle to him admitting he was from out of state "for a gift for his son-in-law that did live locally." Since we didn't fall for it he left us alone.

However, there is a slime-ball "antique dealer" who sells "military relics" with only a C&R license pretty much illegally in my town. He is flagrent about not following the rules, selling non-C&R items without even checking for a Florida dirvers license. He sold a S&W j-frame snubby to a local high schooler and his dad reported him to the BATF. That was more than a year ago and nothing has changed. One of my JrNRA shoters recently bought a Universal M1 carbine (not C&R) from him, cash deal, no paperwork, background check--anything. The kid is not 18 yet but big for his age. Supposedly the guy "knew his Dad." I guess the BATF is busy somewhere else and this stuff is small potatoes.
 
Actively working to entrap someone without something substantial to go on? Highly doubtful. With the terror watchlist and other various insundry hot buttons in the works...not to mention their regular duties... they've got their hands too full these days to put a lot of time and effort into bustin' old Joe Schmo for movin' a couple pistols a year. It's just not cost-effective. They know that there are many deals worked out amongst circles of friends. They don't concern themselves too much with that as long as everybody in the circle is legally clear for possession.

The occasional fishing expedition just to see what turns up? Sure. Why not? That's just police work. Think of the agents that hang around gun shows and throw out trolling lines. That's the place to be extra careful, by the way.

The best policy is to keep your gun B/S/T business on the level and you won't have any hinky after-deal feelings keepin' you awake nights.
 
I don't know how many times I've been asked if I would sell them a machinegun after they see my AR-15 or AK. Most are just uniformed and think that any AR or AK they saw on tv or the movies is automaticly full auto, but some kept asking me if I could buy them a full auto or convert one to full auto.

My standard answer is that it will cost them $5000 for an SOT, a small stack of paperwork, and about about 6 months of wait time. Or I tell them a transferable M-16 will cost between $10,000-15,000, a small stack of paperwork, and a month or three.
 
I knew a retired (then) BATF agent in usenet talk.politics.guns. He LOVED to bait gun owners. I KNOW he had been in the BATF because he published a vanity book on the BATF that you could usually buy by the pound at closeout places.

One day he PRAISED the Nazi gun control laws because, "any German citizen could buy a gun". Having no love for Nazis OR the BATF, I of course asked him, "Were Jews German citizens?" I asked him that same question several times a day, literally for weeks, before he finally answered, "no." I then asked him, "Why do you PRAISE a law which disarmed German Jews, but NOT the Nazis who wanted to slaughter them?" He never answered. He eventually disappeared. Like Charlie Rangell, he didn't react well to tough questions.
 
One could always just not commit crimes and then not have to worry about it...
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While I follow MOST:D of the laws I'm aware of, I'm pretty sure I don't have a clue about the entire criminal code of the US, let alone where state and local laws differ.

Now that it's become a crime to answer my cell phone in the car at 6:00 p.m. when it's my wife calling to see if I can pick up some ketchup on my way home....sometimes i just don't give a crap.
 
are they way too busy too fool with trivial little things like tripping someone up on a FTF sale?
I not going to put myself in a position to find out.
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The Feds always seem to be focusing on one thing, and then another. If it is not the crime du jour they are not interested. Just think how hard it was to get the FBI to investigate some suspicious foreigners taking flying lessons pre-9/11. Just because the BATFE or some other alphabet agency completely ignores flagrant abuses for years, it does not mean that they will ignore it forever. Also, sometimes an alphabet agency lets the most flagrant abusers run around free for years because consciously or not they are giving them info. Think about the Russian Sleeper spies they just caught, the FBI knew about them, and were watching, but never picked them up.

If you try hard to not break the law you don't have to worry about it. It may cost you some extra $$, but an additional $40 transfer fee is nothing. If you have a question about something you can even call the BATFE and ask (they have a 24 hour hotline). When you get the answer you want, thank the guy and get his operator number. Then if you do as the operator told you it is going to be extremely difficult for a jury to find that you intended to commit a crime.
 
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I think it would be a reasonable assumption that BATFE would read a large assortment of message boards. I think the same of the assumption that they might even PM a member about a sale.

Would I think it would be to bring down the hammer of the law on an ignorant individual? No.

If they found someone willing to do an out of state FTF, do I think it would be a tactic to determine if they were doing illegal firearms sales on a larger level, i.e. going after the big fish? Absolutely.
 
I will only sell my firearms through a friend of mine who is a gunsmith/licensed gun dealer. The buyer is then checked out, doesn't know me and the sale is totally legal and the arm is transferred on paper. My fanny is then covered pretty well.
 
I doubt that your common person selling or trying to sell a firearm will be cause for the BATFE to spend much or any time investigating. There would likely have to be other reasons at the present time. Who knows what the future holds? If I sell a gun, I do it in accordance with the law as I undestand it. In the past, I simply state that the firearm must be sold to someone in my state of residence and will entertain no other offers unless it goes through a FFL dealer at their expense.
 
from O.P. :
A fellow contacted me and said he would be passing through my area from another state and said that he was interested in buying my gun and asked if I thought we could do business.
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This is the exact scenario that happen to me two weeks ago. I didn't think about BATFE or tell him that we'd have to go through an FFL holder. It was a couple of brief emails and I just figured he probably knew that he'd have to pass the background check since he was going to purchase in a state other than his own. Who knows? :confused:

You need to understand that in sting operations the LEO has to prove that the defendant was predisposed to commit the crime.
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Easily accomplished :
(Buyer), "Here's the $450 for the rifle. Do you want to see my driver's license? I live in (insert a different state for the seller's state).
(Seller), "O.K."
(Buyer), "I think this should go through some sort of background check but I'm in a kind of a hurry and really don't have the time. If you want to go through an FFL then I'll have to pass on buying the gun."
(Seller), "Ah, that's OK. If anyone asks, I'll just say that I thought you lived in this state."
(Buyer), "Good deal. Is the money all there? I'll be heading back to (out of state state) now and Thanks. Oh, and by the way, I'm with BATFE and you're under arrest!"
 
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There are as&hats everywhere but the flip side is a friend of mine who is LEO & his wife is BATFE. Couldn't ask for better people & the biggest gun nuts I know. Definitely where I take NFA questions first.
 
In order for the ruse to work, they'll have to let you know they're from out of state at some point, and it probably won't be until you are just about to consummate the sale when the desire or pressure to close the sale is highest. Saying they're from out of state at first contact might reveal the seller's willingness to thwart the law, but leaves too much time in the interim for the seller to "come to his senses" as it were.

That said, don't fall for anything that could be construed as a trap or you just might be the next test case before the Court.

Woody
 
I have only one experience with them and it involved importing firearms (shotguns, rifles and handguns) from Canada to the US. I lived in Alberta for five years (job transfer) and bought and sold many while I was there. When I left to move back to the US I had a number of firearms that I wanted to bring with me that I bought in Canada. I went the their website, downloaded the forms and FedEx'd them in. A week later I received in the mail all of the paperwork approving my importation of said firearms and crossed the border with zero issues. Overall, a most pleasant process.
 
Unlike a lot of people in the gun community, I've actually spoken face to face with to more than one member of the bureau. One one of the occasions, I was actually asking about the legality of something I wanted to do. Once the agent realized that all the parties involved were not prohibited individuals, he simply said, "We really don't care what you want to do, as long as you are not prohibited and you aren't trying to move weapons around in an illegal manner".

That sort of gave me the sense that all the worry on the internet about the specific and legal sequence that you need to follow when you're assembling your AR15, is ridiculous. They don't care. I know that the letter of the law is written such that doing things "out of order", technically violates the law, but they really don't care about such petty things.

On another occasion, I was told by a bureau rep that they are really under-funded, or over budget, or something to that effect, and they can't financially afford to get bogged down in small cases.

Having personally heard all of that, there is absolutely zero slack that you should expect from that agency.
 
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