Does this, or can this, chip away at U.S. sovereignty?

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onerifle

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Ok- so we are signatories to the Vienna Convention...how does this affect U.S. jurisprudence in the big picture, if at all?

Court Orders U.S. to Review Mexican Cases
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3925579,00.html

Wednesday March 31, 2004 10:46 PM

By ANTHONY DEUTSCH

Associated Press Writer

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) - The world court ordered the United States on Wednesday to review the death penalty cases of 51 Mexicans, including one scheduled to die May 18 in Oklahoma, saying their right to consular assistance was violated.

The ruling by the International Court of Justice could mean a reprieve or another chance of appeal for dozens of Mexican prisoners. It also could have implications for other foreign citizens in U.S. prisons who were not told they could receive help from their governments.

The State Department has not responded to the ruling, and officials in Oklahoma and Texas, where three of the Mexican inmates are on death row, said no immediate action was being taken in those cases.

It was the second time the highest U.N. court has ruled the United States broke the 1963 Vienna Convention, which protects foreigners accused of serious crimes. In 2001, Arizona ignored a court order to stay the execution of a German citizen.

Although the court dealt specifically with the cases of 52 Mexicans, it cautioned the principle should apply to all foreigners imprisoned for serious crimes. There are 121 foreign citizens on U.S. death row, 55 of whom are Mexican, according to the Death Penalty Information Center.

It would be wrong to assume the court's conclusions ``in the present judgment do not apply to other foreign nationals finding themselves in similar situations in the United States,'' said the ruling by a 15-member panel.

The court backed virtually all of Mexico's main arguments, presented in December.

``The U.S. should provide by means of its own choosing meaningful review of the conviction and sentence'' of the Mexicans, presiding judge Shi Jiuyong said.

Shi said the review, in all but three cases, could be carried out under the normal appeals process in the United States.

U.S. officials will study the decision carefully, said State Department spokesman Adam Ereli, adding that the United States has tried to comply with the requirement that consular access be granted to Mexican and other citizens detained on U.S. soil.

Arturo Dager, a legal adviser with Mexico's Foreign Relations Department, said the court's findings were ``a triumph of international law.''

``Mexico was not vindicated. The rule of international law was vindicated. Of course we are confident the United States will fully comply with the ruling,'' added Mexican Ambassador Juan Gomez Robledo.

David Sergi, who represents Texas prisoner Roberto Ramos, said the ruling ``will give us a chance to litigate a lot of issues that were not addressed at trial.'' He said it could lead to a retrial or at least a sentencing review for his client.

For the three defendants who have exhausted all appeals, the United States should make an exception and review their cases one last time, the court said.

If the United States doesn't abide by the ruling, Mexico intends to take further legal steps, according to a Mexican diplomat. Countries that fail to comply with court rulings can be referred to the U.N. Security Council for ``appropriate action,'' according to the court's statute.

Even if Washington accepts the decision, it's unclear if federal authorities have the power to enforce it or compel individual states to abide by it.

In hearings in December, lawyers for Mexico argued that any U.S. citizen accused of a serious crime abroad would want the same right, and the only fair solution for the men allegedly denied diplomatic help was to start their legal processes all over again.

The United States had argued the case was a sovereignty issue, and that the 15-judge tribunal should be wary of allowing itself to be used as a criminal appeals court, which is not its mandate.

Besides Ramos, the court ordered a special review for fellow Texas inmate Cesar Fierro, and Osbaldo Aguilera Torres, in Oklahoma. Torres is set to be executed on May 18.

Fierro was convicted of shooting a taxi driver to death, Ramos was convicted of killing his wife and two children with a hammer, and Torres was convicted of killing two people during a burglary.

Mark Henrickson, who handled Torres' appeals, said he hopes Oklahoma will comply with the ruling and that his client will be given a new trial.

``The U.S. frequently asks that nations abide by international law and I think we need to abide by international law,'' Henrickson said.

But Oklahoma Gov. Brad Henry plans no action in the case until after a May 7 clemency hearing before the state's Pardon and Parole Board.

``Because Governor Henry has yet to receive any official recommendation on the Torres case from the State Pardon and Parole Board, there is nothing he can do at this time,'' said Henry spokesman Paul Sund, who added that the ruling is being reviewed.

A spokesman for the Texas Attorney General's office said the state doesn't believe the court ruling has standing.

``We've certainly requested assistance of U.S. Department of State for guidance in interpreting this ruling,'' said spokesman Paco Felici. ``But ... we stand on the same comments that we've provided all along during this process, which is our jurisdiction, our cases are in the state and federal courts, and these individuals have been duly tried or are in the process of being duly tried in those courts.''

Other Mexicans are on death row in Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Nevada, Ohio, and Oregon.

The U.S. Supreme Court has refused to be drawn into the international debate over foreigners on death row. In November, the court declined to hear an appeal from Torres, although two of its more liberal members - Justice Stephen Breyer and Justice John Paul Stevens - had misgivings.

Mexico does not have the death penalty. In 2002, Mexican President Vicente Fox canceled a visit to President Bush's ranch in Texas to protest the state's execution of convicted police killer Javier Suarez Medina, a Mexican national. The Supreme Court had refused to hear his appeal.

It is the third time the United States was brought before the court over death penalties imposed against foreign nationals.

Germany lodged a suit in 1999, seeking a ruling on the execution of two German brothers, convicted for murder after a botched robbery. Karl LaGrand was executed before the court could intervene. His brother, Walter, was executed later despite the decision.

Paraguay filed suit against the United States in 1998 to stop the execution of its citizen, Angel Francisco Breard, on Virginia's death row for murder and attempted rape in 1992. It withdrew the case, also based on the Vienna Convention, after Breard was
 
Yes it does.

If you have to ask for permission in order to incarcerate or enact due process within your own borders if the person is a foreigner (not part of the diplomatic corps), then yes, it does chip away at US sovereignty.

I think that we ought to extradite these 55 Mexicans back to Mexico. Fly them all up a C-130, and push them out at 10,000 feet over the Sonora Desert in Mexico. These are scum that committed heinous crimes!
 
The UN trying to stomp on US control of there own Legal system, Sounds about right for that bunch of megalamaniacs...:rolleyes: :banghead:
 
That is a load of garbage. These boneheads come to our country (illegaly), commit murder and they have the nerve to cry about their rights. As far as I'm concerned they have the right to be fried! And the World Court can take their BS ruling and shove it back into the orrifice it came from.

Later,

Dave
 
I'm watching this one closely. If the US bows down to this so called circus...err.. court then expect all of us to lose every right we have and then fall under the UN charters.

That is what scares me so much about sKerry. He advocates UN control and treaties. If we give an inch, they will (and through this "court") take the entire mile.

Coming soon to a neighbor to you: UN CONTROL.

M.
 
I had a big comeback formulated, and then I read Renegades post and decided I would just be repeating what he said. My thoughts as well, Renegade.

Ron
 
http://volokh.com/2004_03_28_volokh_archive.html#108076849700974027

...In a previous case, the Supreme Court refused to use the Vienna Convention to suspend a state execution because, among other things, the Anti-terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act (AEDPA) (a federal statute) prevented defendants from raising treaty violations in their habeas proceedings. The ICJ, however, has now held that application of this procedural default rule violates the Vienna Convention.

Under domestic U.S. law, a later in time federal statute like the AEDPA is given effect by the Supreme Court unless and until Congress revises it. But some members of the Supreme Court, especially Justice Breyer, have suggested in related decisions that the ICJ interpretation of the treaty obligation should be given effect instead of the federal statute because the ICJ has the power to issue "authoritative interpretations" of U.S. treaty obligations.

This is a troublesome approach because Justice Breyer is suggesting that the ICJ's interpretation of U.S. treaty obligations is authoritative, even in the face of prior Supreme Court interpretations to the contrary. In other words, he is giving the ICJ the final word on the interpretation of U.S. treaty obligations, even with respect to how those obligations affect other domestic laws, such as the AEDPA statute. I think this is a dangerous approach that shifts too much interpretive authority to the ICJ. The judgment as to whether a treaty should modify domestic U.S. law, or be interpreted to avoid domestic U.S. law, should be held by the U.S. courts alone.

If the Supreme Court does not follow Justice Breyer's approach, the ICJ's opinion will still raise separation of powers and federalism problems. In theory, President Bush is under an international legal obligation to order the governors of the various states where Mexican nationals face execution to suspend those executions and hold new trials. But aside from being politically unattractive, such an act would be an remarkable assertion of unilateral federal power into traditional matters of state control ...
 
Since Mexico and US NGO's are deadset on fusing the US and Mexico border, we can look forward to a steady stream initiative out of the blissninny world to smooth out the US law code.

Hey, Bush wants to integrate our SS systems to give illegals credit for working in the US. Why not level law codes?????
 
My solution

I would immediately offer to repatriate all of these criminal to their home country. I would even give them first class air service home. Of course, at about 30,000 feet, I would open the door and politely escort them off the place. Sans parachute.

-derek
 
If you have to ask for permission in order to incarcerate or enact due process within your own borders if the person is a foreigner (not part of the diplomatic corps), then yes, it does chip away at US sovereignty.
It reads to me like these other countries just want the opportunity to let their citizens talk to representatives of their government, so that their government might choose to act on their behalf.
Its all well and good to make a point of doing that in the future, as letting the accused talk to whoever they want isn't a big deal, nor is having the US government drop other governments a little postcard saying "Hey, by the way, we've got one of your citizens, and we're going to try and execute him." (Especially if the US agreed to this by treaty. But even if we didn't, it seems like the polite thing to do.)

Forcing the states to restart the criminal's legal process wouldn't be acceptable, though. At most, the State Department might considering writing the US Supreme Court a letter asking them to pretty please reconsider hearing their cases.
 
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