Dog Attack

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If a large breed of dog charges me, I'm going to shoot. If it gets too close to shoot, I'm grabbing the skin on it's face as tight as I can, put it's head on the ground and then I'm going to stomp it's neck as hard as I can. Afterwards, I'd rather be sitting in a court room, than laying on a hospital bed or even worse...A medical examiner's table.

In the end, dogs are predatory animals, and it's a scientifically proven fact that when predatory animals attack out of primal instinct, they go for the neck; that will kill you. Dogs can and have killed people.
 
I doubt my ability to hit a charging dog under stress. At least I have the fall-back option of a contact shot...just have to make sure he doesn't get a hold of my shooting hand. K9 trainers out there...any input as to the validity of this technique?
 
As a long time dog lover and mastiff breeder, I can say this without any doubt..... I am a big man, 6' plus and 260 lbs. I have wrestled with many mastiffs, and you cannot get these dogs off of their feet. The sheer strength they have in their necks makes it impossible to try to control them, and thats when they are playing. In a rage, I am 100% certain that they could kill any man, even with a knife or a bat for that matter. I have watched them break those big cow femur bones from the pet store into many small pieces in a matter of minutes. Imagine what they can do to a human arm or leg in seconds. That being said, mastiffs are not generally a breed that will attack without reason. But all of the smaller dogs mentioned here are very capable of severely crippling a human. I like that most people in the thread seem to realize this, because the general population think only pit bulls and the like are dangerous and capable. All it takes is one bite from any medium to large breed on a human hand and that will crush the bones. Most people will go into shock and succumb. Those who don't, stand a chance to survive and maybe fight the dog off. A knife can help you survive, but not keep you from taking damage. A bat or stick or anything like that is a really bad idea, because you have one chance and then you're done. Pepper spray does not deter a lot of breeds, I know this as fact watching a demonstration on a presa canario. He breathed it in like fresh mountain air and continued his assault. If you have a gun, and can get a shot off on a dog that is charging you, you have every right to defend yourself. Use it if you can, because a fight against a big dog is a fight you're going to lose.
 
And most of the guys on this thread are correct.... a charging dog will usually be on you before you can react. Dogs who bark before they attack are usually out to scare you away, and will attack only if you run. The ones that you need to watch out for are the ones that make no sound on approach, or are just growling as they come at you. If you hear a growl as they are running at you, you can pretty much guarantee a bad day.
 
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altitude_19 said:
I doubt my ability to hit a charging dog under stress. At least I have the fall-back option of a contact shot...just have to make sure he doesn't get a hold of my shooting hand. K9 trainers out there...any input as to the validity of this technique?
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You need to get some more training or have other options. I go walking with a cane, spray, either my Mora or a good lockback knife and my J frame 38. A man got to have options.
 
Moose1995 said:
As a long time dog lover and mastiff breeder, I can say this without any doubt..... I am a big man, 6' plus and 260 lbs. I have wrestled with many mastiffs, and you cannot get these dogs off of their feet.
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Well, at some point you need to realize that you're dealing with too much dog. However, pits, the shepherd breeds, dobermans, etc., can all be taken off the ground or controlled by mounting their backs, wrapping their back legs and securing their head below the points of the jaw.

Agree with your comments on pepper spray. One things a lot of dogs have is mental toughness and the ability to shrug off painful wounds when they're excited. That's why I recommended against knives above. Unless you can kill the animal with a knife, it's not always a good deterrent.

That leaves spray, guns, blunt trauma, and hand to hand to deal with a dog. None is ideal.

As an example of not all dogs being mastiffs, the last time we had a dog problem at our old apartment complex, it was from a trio of enraged Pomeranians who were charging people at the mailboxes. ;)
 
You need to get some more training or have other options. I go walking with a cane, spray, either my Mora or a good lockback knife and my J frame 38. A man got to have options.
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More training on hitting a charging dog with a pistol...really...I'll call gunsight right up and get on that.
And you intend to use a cane point blank after a pistol has failed...really...
Step into the real world...you won't like it but it can be rewarding.
The contact shot is my "other option." I was asking if a professional handler here has any idea how an animal would react to one. Would he break off, or would one have to wait for the animal to succumb to his wounds?
 
altitude, no need to be rude. Deltaboy is a respected member here and was showing no disrespect to you. He was responding to your "doubt" that you could hit a charging dog.

At any rate I am not a professional handler/trainer/K9 unit guy BUT I think you do need to realize that the "contact shot" is not a very good backup IF you miss. To directly answer your question I KNOW there are dogs who would break it off (the majority would), but a well trained and experienced police dog would crush your hand. Unlike with people, closer=less chance of using the gun successfully to hit the dog.

True protection/police dogs are genetically inclined, and trained, to escalate their forward aggression upon hearing things like gunshots. You probably get one shot...contact shot is not a great backup.

If we keep focusing on this scenario we find there are few good outcomes. If you are being pursued by a dog with the genetics and training to do its job, you are going to come out with some degree of damage if you aren't incredibly lucky.

My best advice is really just to not run, turn your back, or give up. You want to stay off the ground, and you want to combine some amount of defensive maneuvering (sidestep/dodge/block) with some amount of offensive maneuvering (grapple, shoot, step forward).
 
Another thought: Leerburg.com puts out a LOT of videos on training K9s and if someone here is truly concerned about training to defend against that type of animal, why not view how they are trained and what they are capable of?
 
I'm not a trainer but my cop wifes police dog was trained by an incredible trainer. A couple of points to consider:
a: If a dog isn't barking to scare you off it's past the point of barking or it was trained to not bark. A lot of obedience trainers will do that so the owners think it's a nice house pet. More dog bites on kids are because the dog was trained to skip the bark warning phase "of stop bothering the dog".

b: Being the guy in the bite suit is kind of fun in a weird way. One dog I took a bite from was a 55# malinois (picture a small German Shepherd on speed), Rosa bit my arm (as she was trained) knocked me down and then started dragging me to her owner. I weighed about 250# at the time. The trainer told me when the dog is dragging me "don't look at her, she might decide to do a rebite on the face". And yes, she did bruise me through bite suit.

c: A shepherd can generate around 1200 psi, bigger dogs can get into the 2000 area.

d: I asked our trainer what he would suggest if attacked by a dog, he said give the pup something to bite. A stick/cane/shoe or even your jacket. Most dogs will get the bite and whip their heads around, if it's biting something else you have time to do something else.

e: I wouldn't go for the contact shot, if I miss what's the chance of hitting myself? Then again shooting through the dog and stopping the bullet with my body could be better than a trained or rabid dog having their way with me. Not really concerned with badly treated dogs with my dog training.

f: Oddly enough I'm a cat person.
 
Charging dog drill

Try this if you want to experience what it's like to fire upon a charging dog: Tie up a bunch of empty one-gallon milk containers with twine, then tie that onto a 100 or so foot long length of twine. Postion it downrange about 75 feet in front of you, and have your buddy stand behind you and pull it rapidly toward you as you commence fire. It's a humbling experience let me tell you. Do a hit count at the end of each round, tape up the holes, and repeat---chances are you won't need a lot of tape! :D
 
Moose1995 is correct. An animal of this size can not be manhandled. My own best method is to, in such an event as you are being overcome by such an animal, is shove your open hand down the animal's throat with full force. Yes, you are going to lose some hide here, but sometimes you just have to step up.
 
Observer said:
shove your open hand down the animal's throat with full force
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If you can get a good grip on the tongue and stick your other hand's thumb into it's eye, that'll probably win some favor in your direction. Regardless of how big, powerful and aggressive the dog is, a vice grip on their tongue (And I don't mean no little grab on the tip of their tongue, I mean reach into it's throat and grab that big piece of flesh leading into the back of their throat) and a big fat thumb in their eye is going to make them whimper and think twice before continuing attack. You people say these Bull Mastiffs, Pit Bulls, etc. can kill a man with ease (Which they can), but a human is capable of killing a dog with their bare hands with ease also, I've seen it happen. It ain't pretty, but it is possible, especially if you are scared for life. A scared person is a dangerous person. A scared person is a very powerful person.
 
altitude_19 said:
More training on hitting a charging dog with a pistol...really...I'll call gunsight right up and get on that.
And you intend to use a cane point blank after a pistol has failed...really...
Step into the real world...you won't like it but it can be rewarding.
The contact shot is my "other option." I was asking if a professional handler here has any idea how an animal would react to one. Would he break off, or would one have to wait for the animal to succumb to his wounds?
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I was not trying to insult you; but if you doubt your shooting skills get some more practice. What I have used it you will laugh is a calf roping machine We put a dog sized target on the rails in place of the calf. The controler stands behind the shooter and on command the target comes toward you. At a Range you can ask the range to have the target come toward you as you draw and shoot. I hunted rabbits for several decades and shooting them on the run has honed my skilled for shooting any dog.

The Cane can be used to deflect the charge if you can't get a good shot. The Spray is also a good option since many have had good luck with it.
A contact Shot is dangerous and is a true last ditch effort; I rather use my training with a knife if the dog has gotten the jump on me and made contact.
Stay safe and watch out for dogs just as you would anybody else on the street.
 
jiphillips said:
c: A shepherd can generate around 1200 psi, bigger dogs can get into the 2000 area.
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Sorry but the only documentation I've seen showed most medium breeds in the mid 200s to low 300s, with a mastiff putting out 550 or so. These were trained dogs who had bite genetics. Still impressive though, and "PSI" means one thing in pure physics and another in terms of trauma where the teeth meet the flesh.
 
About firing a weapon at an animal, some friends of mine had a pit, that had gotten out of the yard and was sniffing her way around their neighborhood. The leo shot her 5 times before she couldn't run away anymore. Kona was one of the best behaved pits I've ever met. My point is, unless you hit the dog in the head with the first shot, it's likely to continue it's attack. Bear spray and a stick get my vote. Not a thick stick to crush the dog, but something fast and springy that stings when it hits

Sent from my rooted, rom'd, and rockin droid
 
I was trained that if a dog every got hold of you and you are able, you should "feed the bite" by pushing your hand/arm more deeply into the dogs mouth/throat this causes the dog to let go...in most cases that is. This will also prevent more damage as some people's reaction is to pull away and tear flesh/ blood vessels. Slamming the nose and poking the eyes can be helpful too.
 
Barking to announce itself or not, it would definitely be on the receiving end of a .45. I have hunted and been outdoors enough in my life to understand that wild animals (yes, domestic dogs included...) should never be underestimated...
 
im not a pet BUT...

my parents didn't want me to get shot, so they trained me properly.

if a pet owner doesn't want their dog shot, they should train them properly.

i'm not blood-thirsty, but i won't hesitate to shoot an aggressive dog.
 
I've been there

What is the best approach in your way to deal with initial attack and strategy for getting out of it alive, and least amount of harm to your person?
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I have been attacked by a pitbull and the only thing I wanted to do was to get out alive. It scared the heck out of me to see it staring me down and when it started to move towards me aggressively I drew my pistol. In the time it took me to draw my pistol and fire 5 times (about 3 seconds) the dog had closed a 25 yard gap and was dead 5 feet in front of me.

Pepper spray has limited range and by the time the dog feels its effects it will already be biting you.

You will NEVER outrun a dog, so don't even try unless it is all you have.

If you want to survive in an attack situation, get that gun out and hope that you can hit a fast moving target as well as you can punch paper at the range.
 
im not a pet BUT...

my parents didn't want me to get shot, so they trained me properly.

if a pet owner doesn't want their dog shot, they should train them properly.

i'm not blood-thirsty, but i won't hesitate to shoot an aggressive dog.
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Actually, so long as they keep it under control and or on their property, they don't need to train it AT ALL. If they don't do either of those things, they have nobody to blame but themselves if their animal gets shot.

  • I don't have ANY duty to know dog behavior.
  • I don't have ANY duty to know YOUR dog's personality.
  • I don't have ANY duty to know or implement less than lethal defenses against dogs.

It is the dog OWNER'S duty to ensure that his animal does not present a danger to third parties or convey a reasonable feeling of immediate danger to third parties.

In Ohio, if your dog attacks someone on public property or their own private property and they shoot it, YOU are probably going to get cited for failure to control your animal.
 
I carry a .38 snubby with me on my morning walks around this very peaceful 'hood, mostly because of dogs. I've had a few close calls but the owners' were able to control them before they had a chance to get hold of me. I figure some day an owner may be a day late and a dollar short.

I love dogs, have 3 myself, the last thing I would want to do is kill another person's dog. But, if it's me or the dog, I'll do it.

I have no idea if my strategy is ultimately a good one or not but my plan is to do as much as I can to keep my strong side intact with the revolver in hand, in my pocket as long as possible. I'd present the weak side and hope to keep the dog busy until the time comes when my life is in imminent danger. Then draw and probably try a close, or contact shot at head or body since it's probably already got me clamped up pretty good.

Of course, life doesn't always go according to plan, also doesn't mean having some sort of plan is futile, it may go down close enough to what I imagined.

I really like some of the ideas for non-lethal force I read here and will add them to my plan. Still not leaving ole' snubby in the safe though.

I want the dog's owner to own 100% of the legal problems as long as possible, once I pull the trigger he and I are now 50% partners, something I'd prefer to avoid.
 
DEADLY FORCE PRE-CONDITIONS. Before using deadly force against another individual to prevent serous bodily harm of death to yourself or others, all of the following pre-conditions must be met. Without all of the pre-conditions satisfied, you are applying excessive force and are subject to punishment under the UCMJ. Presence of these pre-conditions authorizes the use of deadly force:

a. OPPORTUNITY: In order for a person to have the ability to inflict damage or serious bodily harm, he or she must be present or in place.

b. CAPABILITY: Capability would be present if the individual possesses the actual ability to inflict serious bodily injury/death.

c. INTENT: A hostile or dangerous person must clearly indicate the INTENT to cause damage to protected resources, or bodily harm to others. Are they actually aiming a weapon or other dangerous object in a fashion that is capable of, and is obviously being used with the intention of, inflicting damage or serious bodily harm to persons.
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Though this was intended for human threats, you can insert "aggressive dog" into where is says "person" and it will still fit.

Any dog has the capability to cause bodily injury and we should all understand that.

A dog's intents can't all be explained over a forum, most of these are judgement calls made on a case-by-case basis. My dogs growl when there are strangers around, but they will not attack. However, a growl from some dogs is a definite precursor to an attack.
 
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