Doormat?

[strat81]

For those of us who regularly carry, at what point are you avoiding conflict and at what point are you a doormat? Of course, you are never supposed to escalate a situation and try to avoid conflict, but what happens if you ask your neighbor to stop letting his dog use your lawn as a toilet? If you're at a restaurant with your kids, do you ask a vulgar group of people to watch their language? What if you leave the supermarket and see someone accidentally damage your parked vehicle?

These are some examples, and I'm sure you all can think of plenty more. Of course, you should be polite at all times, but some people are jerks no matter how nice you are. Is this just another, "Play it by ear and take 'em as they come?"

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

I don't get it. Are you saying that each of those situations requires you to be belligerent to get results?

Ask your neighbor to contain his dog better and clean it up. If he repeatedly refuses to, file a complaint.

Ask them calmly to watch their language and/or speak to the manager of the restaurant and tell them they need to control their patrons or you are leaving.

Approach the person and ask for their insurance information, if they refuse, note their license plate and call the police.

Do you think that yelling or physical intimidation would get any better results than those? You seem to be under the impression that the only options are escalating towards gunplay or being walked all over.

 

[DogBonz]

Its called CCW

They don't know that you are carrying. Act normal. Most folks don't want to fight with you any more than you want to fight with them. If things start getting a little hot then step awayin the same manner and call the police, you pay taxes, don't you? Well then let the people who you employ stop the nasty people that want to fight with you.

Think. If you were not carrying would you act differently? Would you walk up to the guy that backed into your car at wally world and just punch him in the face? No, you wouldn't. You would try to resolve the situation peacefully, right? Act normal, and people will usually act normal right back. For thoes that don't, pick up your phone and call your "employees".

 

[Gocart]

I would gladly be a doormat a long time to avoid killing someone, even if I'm right and they are wrong.

 

[JCF]

At the point that a reasonable request of someone elicits a hostile response that could be interpreted as threat, it simply makes more sense for you to walk away and address the situation through more formal and detached means.

That is not being a doormat. That is being smart.

It will be much, much more difficult to convincingly explain how you shot someone in self-defense after confronting them. Regardless of whether or not they escalated the situation to violence.

As a side note... no vehicle, no manner of vulgarity, and no amount of dog crap is worth anyone's life.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

wisdom of the ages

"I would gladly be a doormat a long time to avoid killing someone, even if I'm right and they are wrong.
__________________

 

[Mandirigma]

but what happens if you ask your neighbor to stop letting his dog use your lawn as a toilet? If you're at a restaurant with your kids, do you ask a vulgar group of people to watch their language? What if you leave the supermarket and see someone accidentally damage your parked vehicle?

None of these situations would I be in fear of my, or those I care about, lives. So no need to draw.

CFriesen and Gocart got it right.

Its not a pride thing. its a responsibility thing. If you feel angry to a point where you entertain thoughts about pulling your weapon, maybe you shouldn't be carrying. You really want to go to jail for a murder/manslaughter charge over any of the above?

Don't think that drawing the weapon would help deescalate the problem, more likely it will exponentially compound the situation. Not to mention all they would have to do then is call the cops and say "Strat81 pulled a gun on me." and off the the hotel with bars you go.

I freely admit that I sometimes let my anger get the better of me (My own personal demon). But I've never drawn any weapon while angry, too easy to do something stupid. I learned this lesson early on first hand though: Anger equals stupidity.

 

[Technosavant]

There's several things that go into it:

1) Minding your own business. So the guy at the next table has a foul mouth. Let it go- you aren't Miss Manners (and if you are, you aren't always wanted). If it bothers you that much, go find a manager and let the manager be the bad guy- it's his job to keep the dining experience pleasant. If he won't do anything and it bugs you THAT much, leave.

2) Chilling it out. Just let it go- so they cut you off. So what? Find something relaxing to listen to on the radio.

3) Sucking it up. This is the active "OK, I'm letting you win this argument" part of it. If your sense of self is tied up in winning arguments, you've got issues.

4) Letting it go. You're not the anointed one who has a solemn duty to see that all is correct and wonderful. Mix in a healthy dose of #1 here too.

5) Let the cops handle it. So somebody dings your door in a parking lot. Get their license plate info and call the police and report property damage. If your neighbor won't rein in his dog, file a complaint with the authorities.

6) Avoid the jerks. If you know that at place X you are likely to run into the usual crowd of jerks, patronize place Y. Walk around the thuggish groups at the mall or do your shopping online.

If you carry, I highly advise that you do so for protection from legitimate threats that have sought you out, and not to cash checks that your mouth writes.

 

[strat81]

Of course, you should be polite at all times

Jorg, perhaps you missed that from my original post. Polite does not mean belligerent.

I'm not saying "Do I go up to people with my hand on my gun and scream and yell to maintain my pride?" Confrontations come in all shapes and sizes, and yes, asking someone (politely) to watch the language/dog crap/etc is still a confrontation. Unfortunately, you don't know how people will react and sometimes an innocuous confrontation can escalate quickly. I'm sure many of us have seen one guy accidentally bump into someone else, genuinely apologize, and end up in a fight.

And at no point in my original post did I mention drawing a weapon (firearm, OC, baseball bat) on anyone. Seems like some of you are "jumping the gun" (pun intended).

 

[Technosavant]

You asked "what happens if..." and named a few situations. Some of us pointed out ways to avoid confrontation in those situations and more.

Sometimes you will have trouble seek you out (like you said, you can apologize profusely but there are those who just want a fight), and you deal with that when and if it happens (but I contend that those incidents are very few and far between, and a person can probably avoid most of those places where it is likely to happen, like rowdy bars).

You seemed to be asking at what point a person should stand up for himself/herself. We are replying that your actions need to be very circumspect, and you should be very willing to accept a blow to your pride or an alteration to your plans if it means you can avoid ever coming near to wondering "is this life threatening yet?"

I reference my previous post as far as attitudes anybody with a CCW should have. We might not always keep things perfect, but we also need to remember that all it takes is one slip up with the wrong person and everything goes sideways. I'd hate to have to say in the aftermath of a shooting "he wasn't treating me or mine with respect, so I had to teach him a lesson." If it comes to that, expect substandard accommodations for a very long time.

It's one thing to confront nicely and respectfully- no reasonable person would think that asking your neighbor to keep the dog on his plot of ground would be an escalation of tensions leading to fisticuffs, but a reasonable person might think differently about approaching a table of rowdy and profane people (who have clearly had a few too many) and informing them that their behavior is impolite. You judge things as you go, but you always err on the side of caution.

 

[strat81]

Agreed 100% Technoservant, and your original reply was more along the lines of what I was thinking. The first rule of fighting (including gunfighting) is "Be Elsewhere".

 

[mpmarty]

I've never had a polite request to "give me your insurance info", "please keep fido off my lawn", or "oops sorry I bumped into you and caused all that hot coffee down your front" escalate in any way. I'd never think of intruding on a group of celebrants to tell them their language offended me or my guests in a restaurant. I've carried concealed for 48 of my 68 years and only drawn and fired twice. I've never drawn and not fired.

 

[1 old 0311]

I was a juror on a murder trial years ago. We were told that for you to be innocent ALL THREE OF THESE.........REPEAT ALL THREE..........NOT ONE........NOT TWO must be true:

You CAN'T be the one who started it.
You MUST feel your life is in danger.
You feel you have NO means of escape.

 

[Eyesac]

+1 Techo's list...

 

[Lonestar49]

...

First, I don't think S81 posted because it will take a gun to deal with his neighbor IMO.

Second, if one has been a doormat once too many times during his or her lifetime, and then buys a new gun, and the devil on his/her shoulder is saying
"not gonna take this **** anymore".. you're not new to the club, but wiser for talking, as in these forums, and learning. It's the ones that don't talk that you need to worry about.

The little devil, that gives you this new coat of armor can be tamed thru Instruction, marksmanship practice, and IMO, a 1 or 2 full day tactical course.

When it all becomes past the "thrill" of power, and the discussions and practice bear fruit, along with "talking" and being wiser for listening, you'll be stronger, more powerful, and more responsible, for the *airplane or *ship (*yourself), you are always the Captain of and all that goes with that responsibility.

I would just say, back away, if it gets heated, head back (keeping face to face with whomever) to your property, hands in a OK, you win, I just thought we could work out a friendly solution manner.

Now, if he comes unglued, seek distance and cover, along with loud shouts, warnings, "stop, I don't want trouble" (to perk up anyone nearby) for witnesses you may well need in a court of law to prove your innocents of "in fear of your life" and then and only then should you draw out and point (finger not on trigger).. Get in your house if possible and lock door and call police and wait. The worst case scenario is the idiot breaks down your door, and enters with the words or actions to the effect, he's gonna hurt you, family, kids inside, it all ends inside that door, you are then trained up, and your choice will be clear.

I know I have simplified it, as he may have a weapon, or just himself, but still, at that point, he is the weapon, and there is no guarantee that he will stop before severe damage or death has occurred and beyond, to your dog, if you own one, or any other family member around.

So, here's a couple of good things to try:

In my case, I have a great German Shepherd, and we live next (across the street from) a very nice small park but, we get what I call park traffic and dogs, litterbugs, etc., so I chained him up to the big tree out front and gave him the length to just before the sidewalk. Worked like a charm, people either started walking on the other park-side of the street, or moved quick jerking their dogs off my grass and moving by quick.

When it was to fast for me to get him out to ride fence..lol, I would, and still do, hit the auto water switch and give them a nice bath, and they "can't see me" doing that, because it always happens around the same time late in the day, so they hopefully think it bad timing.. lol

Bottom line in all this and life, is not to show your cards. Don't let anger take control, you give away your intentions and become a mark, maybe not then, but some day later, be it your house is painted, shot full of holes, etc.,

Your best friend is training, and knowledge from asking questions and reading and digesting good information as is above in this thread and make a meal out of it each time.

Common Sense can be learned and it becomes second nature, and you will learn how to use SA (situational awareness) as a wonderful force to keep you one step ahead of most, if not all, situations.


Just outsmart them, one way or another, without giving your cards away.


You'll live longer and be better for it.




LS


PS. not that 2 wrongs make a right, but if you seek the need for revenge, and I have done it without repercussions. Since the neighbor lets his dog out either early in the morn, or in the dark, if this is the case, and he thinks you don't see it or know, then when he can't see you, take your favorite shovel and scoop it and fling it on his driveway under a car tire is perfect, or the far side of his lawn (its gonna smell) and hopefully downwind.. lol

Keep the Dogs of War (bullets or show of gun) unknown, you're the only person that needs to know. The element of Surprise and SA (situational awareness) go hand in hand.

I hope this helps anyone, and if I've got something wrong, I'm listening.

 

[hso]

what happens if you ask your neighbor to stop letting his dog use your lawn as a toilet? If you're at a restaurant with your kids, do you ask a vulgar group of people to watch their language? What if you leave the supermarket and see someone accidentally damage your parked vehicle?

I've been in all of these situations and I've dealt with them without a a shouting match or any violent confrontation resulting. Why would you expect that violence would be the result?

Like most conflict situations diplomacy is always the first course of action. Should that fail there's other non-violent measures that can be taken. As has been pointed out the manager can deal with guests/customers that are acting out, the police and insurance companies can deal with the hit and run driver and a fence can keep the dog off your property.

Perhaps the conflict resolution thread would be a good read to look for solutions?

 

[g5reality]

+1 to Jorg & Technosavant

Exactly how I would answer.

 

[shotgunkevin]

Do you want to enjoy life, or do you want to be right?

Pastor Bill Scheer

 

[Big Calhoun]

People are going to be who they are no matter what. If someone is respectful, then they most likely will act that way, and vice-versa.

IMO, about the only thing having a CHL changed was some of my dressing attire, that's it. I still ask the nieghborhood boy to turn down his stereo in his truck late at night, I still ask the nieghbor upstairs to turn down her TV at late hours...nothings changed.

If they don't comply, what am I going to do? Shoot them because I assume they have no disregard for my feelings and thus are not worthy? If that were the case, then I've essentially have stepped down to their level.

Concealed is concealed. It's not courage in a bottle. Just my 1.5 bits.

 

[03Shadowbob]

Amen GoCart.
As far as the neighbor not cleaning up his dog's crap from your yard, if he doesn't respond accordingly, you can always pick the crap up yourself and return it to him (where you leave it is up to you but if he's like my neighbor he'll get the point).

 

[ezypikns]

If an individual has a need to 'not be a doormat'....

they probably shouldn't be carrying.

What I am saying is this: If an individual doesn't have the ability to just let things go, they may want to reconsider carrying.

 

[spencerhut]

Geez, I thought I had a temper.
I'll try and keep this short. Many years ago. . . a friend had a very nice truck. Neighbors cat liked to urinate on it. So one day my friend stuffed in arrow in the cat. Cat ran the the ten or so feet home and died. A few hours later the neighbor came to my friend with the dead cat (arrow still in it) and was crying because someone shot her cat. She asked if he knew who could have done such a thing? My friend was of course horrified and gave his sympathy to the lady over her dead cat. He then pointed out what a nice arrow was used to stuff her cat and asked her if he could have it. Needless to say my (now former) friend is a real jerk and if there is a hell will rot in it.
I feel bad about this and I didn't even have anything to do with it. It was almost ten years ago. I still feel sorry for that lady, hell I never even met her and I feel bad for her.

How bad would you feel if some stupid, pointless argument about a dog taking a dump turned into a fist fight with a fellow human? I can't even imagine pulling out a firearm in such a circumstance. But hey, if you think it's worth it, I hope your neighbor carries and gets you first, you'll have earned it.

But, before that happens do yourself a favor and get an airsoft and pelt the offending animal in the hind quarters when you catch it on your property. Works for me.

 

[03Shadowbob]

Spencer,
I was going to post about the bbgun/airsoft gun but I didn't want to be chastised by the powers that be today.

 

[spencerhut]

BB gun is kind of mean. Airsoft, that's just plain funny.

 

[03Shadowbob]

well my red rider is so worn out and bb's move so slow I can fire one off, drink a beer, walk out and set the can down and watch its entire path before it hits the can.