Double stack 1911's

[Reloadron]

Just so everyone knows, if you are giving an answer indicating that you can't think of a situation where you would need more than 7 or 8 rounds, I think you are pretty limited in your thinking abilities. To those who feel this way, I guess you use 10 round mags in your AR?

Actually for the most part I use 20 round magazines in my AR guns and seldom load over five or ten rounds in them. Mostly shooting five or ten shot groups.

Ron

 

[ATLDave]

Go to a USPSA match and you'll see dozens of them from several different makers.

Of course, most of them cost $3k+ new. Gamers will pay for levels of performance not perceived to be necessary or "worth it" for home defense or punching paper at the square range.

 

[Drail]

Double stack pistols solve one problem - ammo capacity - but introduce a couple of new ones - weight and balance. The weight and balance of a fully loaded double stack changes pretty dramatically as the pistol goes from a full magazine to the last 2 or 3 rounds - much more than a single stack. Muzzle climb increases as the pistol becomes more and more top heavy. The difference between the first 2 rounds and the last 2 rounds makes it feel like a different gun. The other problem is grip width if you happen to have smaller hands like most women. Are these factors important? They are IMO. Shooting a pistol accurately and consistently is hard enough - why make it harder? The only reason we're seeing double stacks in so many gun games is simply because the stages are designed to require more rounds which gives an advantage to the double stacks.

 

[ATLDave]

The weight and balance of a fully loaded double stack drastically changes as the pistol goes from a full magazine to the last 2 or 3 rounds - or at least much more than a single stack. .... Shooting a pistol accurately and consistently is hard enough - and I can see no good reason to make it even harder.

If that were a big problem, you wouldn't see virtually all of the top-level competitors in USPSA divisions where 2011's are allowed using some form of them.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

What's not to like? Plenty. One of the 1911's claims to fame is being a full size service pistol that can be easily carried and concealed. Much of that comes from being so flat. Changing it to a double stack removes that advantage not to mention the blasphemy of changing an over 100 year old John Browning creation. lol

 

[Drail]

I believe the single stack would still be more popular if course designs had not gone to "how many targets can we place out there for every stage?" I watched that happen back in the 90s. Top level competitors have managed to deal with the double stacks because they had to if they wished to be competitive.

 

[Cannibul]

Most of those gun gamers shooting double stack 2011 pistols aren't shooting .45 ACP. Most of them are shooting .40 Short and Weak or .38 Super.

 

[ATLDave]

Drail, so you theory is that people ought to shoot higher hit factors on classifier stages in Single Stack than in LTD?

Man, I sure wish USPSA would release full classifier data so we could figure out stuff like this. Because I think there's a .0001% chance you are correct.

 

[Ed Ames]

The weight and balance of a fully loaded double stack changes pretty dramatically as the pistol goes from a full magazine to the last 2 or 3 rounds - much more than a single stack.

From a moment and arm perspective I would think the opposite was true.

If you have, arbitrarily, 10 cartridges with an outside diameter of 10mm (totally arbitrary numbers for easy math), and put them in a single line, your center of mass will be 50mm down from the uppermost cartridge, and will move 45mm as you fire. If you put them in a mythical "perfect" double stack (two colums of 5) the center of mass will be 25mm down and will shift 20mm as you fire.

 

[claiborne]

I always wanted a double stack 1911 but I found them too big to fire accurately.

 

[1KPerDay]

My guess is because when we take a short fat cartridge like the .45 ACP and start stuffing them in a double stack magazine we end up with a very wide hand grip. Not a problem for those with large hands but for an average hand a double stack .45 ACP is a handful. The first double stack magazine .45 ACP pistols I picked up the first thiong I noticed was how wide they were compared to a standard 1911.

The grips actually aren't that much wider. The frontstrap is wider of course, which makes the entire grip feel wider.

 

[ATLDave]

Note that the overall grip width of many 2011's is within a tenth of an inch of the grip width of many common Glocks, for instance.

If you're used to a 1911 and only a 1911, they're definitely fatter. If you're used to double-stack magazines in general, then, for many of them, no.

 

[hq]

As always, it's not about the need. It's about want, which is guided by personal preference. While I do have a small collection of traditional 1911:s, double stack 1911:s are my preferred range and carry guns. Mainly Para and Caspian platforms, the latter having slightly better ergonomics for my size 10/11 hands. However, 1911 being a traditional pistol, many of those who prefer it over more recent plastic fantastic designs prefer the original single stack configuration. Even though the majority of standard 1911 parts are interchangeable, trigger and mag release differ slightly in all double stack designs and all of them seem to be proprietary.

The "neo-traditionalist" double stack 1911 market is a bit of a niche. Most buyers are either full blown purists or just take the easy double stack route and get a Glock or equivalent. The middle ground is fairly narrow and that's reflected in a limited number of offerings on the market today.

 

[Reloadron]

The "neo-traditionalist" double stack 1911 market is a bit of a niche. Most buyers are either full blown purists or just take the easy double stack route and get a Glock or equivalent. The middle ground is fairly narrow and that's reflected in a limited number of offerings on the market today.

Which it would seem answers the original question which began the thread.

Ron

 

[george burns]

I have two old PO's, a P-14 in .40 and a P-16 in .45. Love the things. They have very high round counts and are as reliable as a shovel. To be honest, they have been 'smithed' a bit in the past to make them that way though. Double stack fits my hand well and they both shoot really well.

My para P_13 never missed a beat, for 20 years, plus it was alloy. I sold it in a fit of bordom.

 

[mgmorden]

I believe the single stack would still be more popular if course designs had not gone to "how many targets can we place out there for every stage?" I watched that happen back in the 90s. Top level competitors have managed to deal with the double stacks because they had to if they wished to be competitive.

There's a completely separate division just for single stack 1911's if you want to shoot it - where you'll be competitive by definition because that's all you'll be competing against. Yet, that division is mostly empty as matches (and that's not due to division age - Production came about at a similar time and is the 2nd most popular division in the sport, and PCC just started yet has become incredibly popular overnight.

The simple reality is in competition a LOT of people like the double stack 1911's. They shoot great, and if you're going to be dropping a ton of money on a custom/semi-custom gun anyways, then you might as well get it setup the way you want.

And for the STI guns, as to grip width, at the center the grip it is nearly the same thickness as a single stack - it's just more "square" so that it tapers less in the front and back. If you can shoot a Glock though, then you can shoot an STI 2011.

 

[tarosean]

The only reason we're seeing double stacks in so many gun games is simply because the stages are designed to require more rounds which gives an advantage to the double stacks.

If it were only a matter of capacity you would see other guns share the limelight, yet it's 2011's that dominate.
Besides all competitors shoot the same COF from revolver to race guns.

 

[Tallball]

It depends on how big you are. I am 6'6" and have large hands even for my size. My shooting buddy is 6'8" and my hands are larger than his are. Double-stack 1911's and big-frame CZ's and such are beautiful for me because they give me plenty to grab onto, so that I can actually shoot them decently. One of my other shooting buddies is 5'6" and can't even shoot stuff like that at all. It just depends on your size.

 

[WestKentucky]

I'm in the ultimate minority here, and it has been shown as such in the past, but I prefer the smaller 1911 pistols as in the Sig, Kimber, Browning, etc downsized to 9mm or .380. I would absolutely love one of these in doublestack form complete with thin grips to minimize the size of the grip. Apparently I am one of about a dozen folks on the planet that wants this to happen.

 

[Kp321]

I have been shooting a Para 14-45 for ten years and love it but it now sits on the shelf since I bought an STI. A lot more money but the STI is done right. 100% reliable and very accurate right out of the box. My hands are not extremely large but I have had no problem handling either gun.

 

[Coltdriver]

20 rounds of .45 ACP is about one pound. So add that to a 3 pound full size pistol and your getting into Walker territory. I have handled them, they feel great and fit my hand well. But I could not imagine carrying one.

 

[Gordon]

I too have been shooting Paras since the 90s. First it was a P-13, it proved so reliable I built up a P-14 using all the GI AMU 1911a1 parts that would fit in it . It is my go to battle gun, I was able to not carry Milt Sparks 6 pack with two double mags pouches I just carried a double mag pouch and a single and called it good I have recently added a P-12 .45 LDA and just stripped it and smoothed it up a bit, it replaced my Colt Officers Light weight as a CCW in Oregon and Az.

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