Drawing conceal carry weapon--when

[Guy B. Meredith]

Any general guidelines on when it is prudent, legal or a bad idea to draw and show a concealed carry weapon as a deterrent without immediate intent to fire?

Some theoretical situations:

Walking across parking lot with purchases and two or more people on bicycles begin circling you.

Individual uses bullying tone to suggest s/he would think it funny to release a pit bull with obviously aggressive body language to attack you and your dog, perhaps stepping forward or mimicking your move to leave the area.

Older teens or adults with skateboards act aggressively surly and crowding passage.

 

[slumlord44]

I would say no.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Guy:

There probably are multiple legal hoops in each State, and possibly even down to the local level, so there's really no solid answer, IMHO.

Generally, though, you should be safe in any situation where you had already decided that you would shoot if the situation escalated (or if it was already there - like some BG firing at you).

There are cases where "Low Ready" is desirable. Essentially, unholster the weapon and hold it in your hand, out of view of the potential BG. Put it away posthaste should the situation resolve itself.

Sometimes "body language" is sufficient....

Regards,

 

[RustyShackelford]

Error-net....

Gun & tactics forums are not the place to learn skills or get "legal advice".
Id highly suggest speaking to a local criminal defense atty or going to a few lethal force/tactics courses. They can explain what you can & can not do.
If no courses are available or your budget/$ doesn't permit it, get a few books or videos. There are several top lethal force instructors with worthy details.
Cadre like Duane Dieter, Massad Ayoob, Clint Smith, Larry Vickers, SIG Sauer Academy, Jeff Gonzales.
With guns & tactics, there's a lot of "what ifs" or "buts". Learn & understand the laws in your area. Consider a legal defense plan like www.CCWsafe.com or Second Call(NRA) too.

 

[Kleanbore]

Read this for a general discussion.

 

[JRH6856]

What is legally advantageous and what is tactically advantageous are often at odds and the laws vary from state to state.

 

[Sam1911]

I'm going to second Kleanbore's suggestion that you read THIS (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=731200) carefully.

And the first paragraph says:

"Brandishing", and "When Can I Draw"?

Introduction

Few subjects are more widely misunderstood than that of the proper and improper presentation of a firearm or other weapon in a confrontation or self-defense situation.

We have penned the following to address this important issue. Thanks to Frank Ettin for taking the time to help with this.

The laws vary among jurisdictions, and while it is important to know the law wherever we intend to travel, we must caution against looking for ways to justify pulling a gun. Pointing a firearm at another person is a very serious thing to do. There are legal ramifications, and there are other serious risks. One should only draw a gun when there is reason to believe that it is immediately necessary to do so.

Never draw a gun in someone's presence unless you know EXACTLY what you're going to do with it next, and WHY.

 

[jrdolall]

I think it will vary widely based on where you are when it happens. The mindset in Alabama is a lot different than the mindset in Oregon.
I have carried for the better part of 30 years and have NEVER drawn my weapon. I have had my hand on my weapon on a couple of occasions and even that can be reason for a lawsuit.
If you think that your life is in danger then you have the right to draw your weapon but you darned sure better be able to PROVE to a jury that you were justified in your thoughts.

My personal opinion (which I know means little in a courtroom) is that if I feel threatened enough to draw and/or fire my weapon then I am willing to accept legal consequences. I am only going to draw if there is imminent danger to my, or someone else's, life.
In today's litigious society we all need to be aware that virtually everything we do can put us in a courtroom and cost us a lot of money or time in jail. Ask AP what can happen?
Take this advice and $5 to Starbucks and you can get a small ( I know they call it veni or vidi or venti or Venice or something other than small but I don't go there so I don't know their terminology) coffee.

 

[BSA1]

Drawing a firearm is always risky and may escalate the situation. What do you do if the youths refuse to back off and taunt you to shoot them?

Shooting a unarmed youth engaged in a harmless recreational activity by riding his bike or skateboard or a unarmed young man walking his dog will bring you troubles that will last for years.

Look at Ferguson, MO. for the reaction of the shooting of a unarmed "gentle" young man.

 

[BP Hunter]

I carry my weapon the 3 o'clock position, IWB during the summer and OWB in winter. If ever that happened to me, I would put my hand on weapon without actually pulling it out signalling the half-lives that I had a deadly weapon. I will not show the gun so I cannot be accused for brandishing.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

The link Kleanbore provided is an authoritative and complete answer to the question in general. As to the specific situations given by the OP, none of them justify the production of a deadly weapon assuming the situation is exactly and only as the OP gave.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Any general guidelines on when it is prudent, legal or a bad idea to draw and show a concealed carry weapon as a deterrent without immediate intent to fire?...

The usual definition of assault, based on the Common Law is:

an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.

In the laws of some States this crime might be given another name. For example, in Alabama it's called "menacing." But by whatever name it is called, it is a crime in every State.

So a display of a firearm or telling someone you have a gun, when done for the purposes of intimidation or to secure his compliance, is, in all States, an assault of some type. You are effectively putting someone in fear of an imminent harmful or offensive contact, i. e., getting shot.

Now in all States it will be a defense against a charge of assault (or any similar crime) if you establish that your assault satisfied the applicable legal standard for justification.

In most States the standard for justifying a threat of lethal force is the same as for justifying the use of lethal force in self defense. In a few, it's a somewhat lesser standard. So in all States if you threaten lethal force you will need to be able to at least show prima facie such threat was legally justified, that is if you want to avoid a conviction for assault.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

So a display of a firearm or telling someone you have a gun, when done for the purposes of intimidation or to secure his compliance, is, in all States, an assault of some type.

Word. Frank and Sam are pointing you exactly at your answer...the very second you skin it, you better know exactly what's coming next, what you are gonna do, and what the consequences are.

In my world and in my training a verbal "what's up buddy? Yer making me nervous here..." Followed by the appropriately ramped up "Get off me!....*NOW*" comes way before skinning my pistol.

VooDoo

 

[IlikeSA]

I agree with the above posters. You cannot use your weapon or the threat of a weapon to gain compliance. I would urge the OP to read the book Verbal Judo. You can often gain compliance with your words, and if you cannot, you can say that you attempted to disarm the situation. Do everything possible before drawing and threatening/menacing.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Any general guidelines on when it is prudent, legal or a bad idea to draw and show a concealed carry weapon as a deterrent without immediate intent to fire?

Some theoretical situations:

Walking across parking lot with purchases and two or more people on bicycles begin circling you.

Individual uses bullying tone to suggest s/he would think it funny to release a pit bull with obviously aggressive body language to attack you and your dog, perhaps stepping forward or mimicking your move to leave the area.

Older teens or adults with skateboards act aggressively surly and crowding passage.

These are, indeed, valid questions. The threat of violence is a potential circumstance we all may face. I can tell you I've certainly faced exactly these kinds of situations at various points in my life.

Ask yourself what the purpose of carrying a firearm for self-defense is. The answer should be "so that I may project deadly force in defense of life and limb."

ANYBODY who carrys a firearm HAS to make a decision at any given point in time with respect to when they NEED to apply deadly force.

The moment you make the decision to draw your weapon, you have set your mind on applying deadly force as the only way to survive an encounter. You may hold off on actually applying that deadly force, but you're ON THAT PATH.


Do these scenarios you listed require you to take that path? That is a question that only YOU can answer at the time you encounter them and under whatever other dynamic conditions you may encounter.

Someone making taunting remarks about siccing a pit bull on you is one thing. Someone actually WITH a pit bull making threatening remarks about siccing the animal on you while riling up the animal is quite another. Make your preparations and take action accordingly.


And DO read through the link Kleenbore and Sam1911 referenced.

 

[bainter1212]

In the situation you postulated in your OP, I would loudly and clearly state to your "bullies" that you feel intimidated and you are trying to retreat, and that if they were to release their dog at you, you would consider that a deadly threat. Any one of them with HALF a brain would understand that as code that you were armed. If they DIDN'T take the hint and subsequently released the dog, and you were forced to draw and shoot it, there are now multiple witnesses who can attest that you not only verbally asked to be allowed to withdraw, but that you verbally let them know you considered the dog a deadly threat.
If the SHTF at least one of them is likely to blab everything you said to the cops when/if they show up.
Not to mention any potential bystanders who may hear you saying this (in a LOUD voice).

I am always a proponent of making sure you speak LOUDLY so that you involve as many bystanders in the situation as possible in such a situation. The more corroborating witness statements the police have, the better.

 

[BobWright]

NEVER, EVER, show your gun to intimidate. Maintain your composure and carry on. When bodily harm or death is imminent, come up firing.

Bob Wright

 

[BSA1]

Remember your cellphone and 911 are important tools at your immediate disposal and should be used before drawing your gun if at all possible. The 911 call will record everything you say along with background noises and voices. Your words like "leave me alone, I don't want any trouble, I'll just go back into the store, why are you threatening to beat, rob, etc ." will help establish the threat and chain of events.

 

[gripper]

My rule of thumb is 1) Never escalate, engage in challenging behavior/ speech/" calling out or threatening ".... And 2) Always ( armed or otherwise have an appropriate response to see to your own safety first. Check your ego, but be confident/ competent enough to discourage aggression should the need arise.
In general, awareness/ avoidance strategies work out a lot as Plan A... Plan B is for when that's no longer possible.
Check out legal sources of information, but don't ever convey the impression of " prepping to stage the scene".
And, BTW; the last time someone loosed a Pit Bull Terrier on me I wound up adopting him.Best dog I ever had

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I just wanted to add that if one suspects he is OK with taking another persons life (that can happen when you draw your weapon) and is "up to" a shootout and mentally prepared for the consequences then that same person should be OK with telling the person he intends to shoot that they need to change their behavior and that he feels threatened and cornered.

I would never let my pistol do my talking for me and by the time they see my weapon all other possibilities (including verbiage) would have been exhausted....if it's deadly enough that I feel I am protecting life, the last thing an attacker will get from me is the sight of my pistol as all other options will already have been exercised. I'd second the recommendation on learning "Verbal Judo"...if one is aggressive enough to contemplate using deadly force he should be aggressive enough to be comfortable with talking himself out of it if that's an option.

VooDoo

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

"Deadly force is that amount of force which I know, or should know, will cause serious bodily injury or death, to be used as a last resort when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed."

I learned this in the Navy decades ago. That's deadly force, and when to use it, in a nutshell.

If you haven't hit the "when to use it" part, then you should be thinking really hard about why you're pulling your weapon.

 

[303load]

Well if somebody says they gonna sic the barking dog in me then what.

 

[RustyShackelford]

911 calls, incident reporting....

To address the point of calling 911 or contacting LE;
It's a good idea & prudent to call or contact 911 ASAP in a critical incident but do not think that will automatically save you or absolve of any legal or civil liability issues. It's also not always practical to keep the line open or stay on with the dispatcher.
I'd add that the 911 operator/call center dispatcher is not a sworn LE officer. I wouldn't go by what they say or tell me to do if I think it's unsafe or will compromise my safety/welfare.
This is a hotly contested point in the Zimmerman/Martin incident(02/2012).
As author & lethal force instructor Massad Ayoob pointed out in his articles about the Zimmerman case, a 911 dispatcher can advise you but they have no legal authority over you.
Dispatchers aren't perfect. Doing security work I've had dispatchers give me the wrong information, relay the wrong details or omit important information to responding LE officers, distort details, and misidentified subjects/people.
I can't speak for all areas of the USA, but where I live & work, the police/patrol deputies who answer calls do not go by the 911 caller(also called a reporter). They go by what ever the group or crowd that gathers around says.
This is frustrating sometimes but if you are aware of it, you can be prepared to handle it.
Some forum members may hoot & holler saying cops don't do that.
I say; watch the youtube.com video of The Yankee Marshal's comments about a incident in Portland OR where a veteran/licensed security officer/CCW license holder had a lethal force incident was arrested then later released(fully exonerated). The LE officers on the scene heard a few statements/crowds then claimed the CCW license holder used inappropriate force.
A later autopsy/ME screening revealed the events took place the way the veteran claimed not the crowd on the scene.
The PD & prosecutors never explained how they missed the spent cases, ME details & other forensic details.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Well if somebody says they gonna sic the barking dog in me then what.

Ok. While you're at it, write up a couple dozen more such questions.

The answer ALL of them is the same: YOU must evaluate the perceived and real threat you are encountering AT THAT TIME and make a decision as to whether or not you need to employ, or prepare to employ, deadly force.


Even the (very) brief scenario you described here has a lot of different answers depending on the real-world circumstances which may be involved.

Are you in your car? Bugger it and roll your window up.

Is the barking dog a little terrier? Bugger it and walk away.

Is the dog in a fenced yard that the guy has to walk/run to in order to let the dog out? Bugger it and leave.

Got a stick that can handle the dog? No need for a gun.

Is it an angry BFD and is the guy actively unhooking the leash while you're out in the open? Get prepared to run or draw your weapon or both.


THE POINT IS:

You are NOT going to get a credible, one-action-fits-all response. You MUST evaluate whatever scenario you find yourself in, the resources you have available to you, and the action(s) you must take in order to survive any given encounter.


There's an old saying: "When all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail."

As a gun owner, and presumably someone who carries a firearm, your gun had better NOT be your only tool. Your brain is your most important resource. Use it to add more tools to your tool box.

 

[vamo]

A good general rule of thumb is if you have to ask then no don't. Never count on a gun to defuse an already tense situation people are unpredictable what might work with some people might be the equivalent of pouring gas on a fire when in a confrontation with others.