Drum & pan magazines - still useful?

[cluttonfred]

Vaarok's DP28 pics have me wondering...do drum (classic Tommygun, axis aligned with the bore) and/or pan (DP above, axis perpindicular to bore) magazines still have a role to play in modern weapons?

Discounting for a minute the belt-fed designs, some of which can look like a drum when in fact they use a belt in a box, there don't seem to be many drum-or pan-type magazines in use anymore. The double-snail Beta C-Mags seem to have a mixed reputation in actual field conditions.

I did read on THR and elsewhere that the Marines are looking for a 100-round magazine-fed "automatic rifle" that would be lighter and handier that the M249 SAW and still allow use of standard M-16 magazines.

Personally, I have always liked the top-loading designs like the DP and the Bren. Maybe what the Marines need is a scaled down DP in 5.56mm that can top-load M-16 mags Bren-style in a pinch? Give it a top Picatinny rail offset to one side and you're all set.

Seriously, though, any thoughts on the pros and cons for drums and pans in modern long arms, anything from a carbine or SMG to an LMG or...?

 

[bogie]

Problem with a lot of the bigger magazines is that the soldiers grow to hate them, as they require more of the soldier to be in the air, and not "as one with the earth" during firefights.

Ever shoot an AR with a 30 rounder from the prone? Yeeech! I like 20 rounders...

 

[wally]

The drums for my Tommy SMG only function when scrupulously clean and are a PITA to load, and difficult to remove/insert. I can't imagine using them under real field conditions. I could easily insert and empty 60 rounds in two 30 round sticks before I could insert and fire 50 from the drum. The 100 round drum is totally impractical.

--wally.

 

[Nolo]

The Ultimax LMG uses 100-round drum mags.
High-capacity is always an issue, no matter what system you use.
If you use belts, you'll get sheize in the action from crud picked up on the belt. If you use drums, they are hard to clean and heavy.
One way to get around the belt problem: Make your action like a Kalashnikov. The PK did this, and it's been pretty successful. However, if you want your LMG to hit anything in particular (and not just be a good suppressor), then that route leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
With drums/pans, they are hard to clean. However, they get less crud in the action. You can get around the hard-to-clean part by making them split either lengthwise or widthwise, so that the operator can just wash them out. This adds more parts and makes them prone to breakage, though.
The DP's weakest part was the pan magazine, that's why they switched to belt-feed in the later models (after WWII).
I have to say I really hate belts, but the belt-in-box mag seems to be the best GPMG option, even if it's heavier, while the drum system seems to be best for LMGs, provided you stick with a low-profile drum. There are two ways to do this:
One: use a spiral layout. Most drums use a simple circular layout. Spirals are more space efficient. However, they are also harder to make and maintain. But that can be remedied.
Two: put the feed port on one side, and have shells eject to the bottom. This is a good system, but it puts extra strain on the magwell and is rather awkward for some users. Using a heavier magwell solves this problem, but adds weight.
Three: use a helical magazine. This is good for something in a relatively short caliber, like 5.56, but it starts becoming really awkward with longer rounds. Hell, it's already awkward enough with 5.56. This system suffers from the same problems as spiral magazines, but is even more low-profile.
I say: use something like a PK with belt-in-box for GPMG and something like the Ultimax with a spiral magazine for LMG/SAW use.
Another note: drums really suck for bullpups.
Another 'nother note: I always wondered why people don't use double-stack drums. Seems like an obvious choice. The newer 5.56 drums like the Beta-C are DS, I know.

 

[cluttonfred]

bogie, that sounds like another vote in favor of top-loading magazines. The handiness when firing prone, or when having a gunner's assistant help change magazines, is probably why light machine guns seem to be the only category that has often used top-loading magazines (often drum- or pan-types)--Madsen, Lewis, Degtyaryov and Bren all come to mind off the top of my head.

wally, it sounds like you've discovered why the simplified M1A1 Thompson only took the stick magazines--the drums were notoriously finicky on the battlefield, which was a lot dirtier than the trunk of a G-Man's, or Al Capone's, car.

I wonder why the USMC wants a magazine-fed design instead of a belt-fed design that can also use M-16 magazines?

 

[Nolo]

Because belts get really dirty. That's why the USMC wants drums. The USMC is a more mobile, more dynamic force than the other branches, and so it wants something that will be more organic in the squad. They tried putting an M16 mag port in the M249, and it didn't work and has largely been deleted. Belts get really dirty and foul up the action (one of the reasons the Shrike 5.56 is such a bad idea... can you image how fast a belt would jam up an AR action?), so for a mobile SAW gunner, the USMC wants drums. The Ultimax 100 is the leading contender, I believe.

 

[Quiet]

USMC IAR program.

Magazine/drum fed automatic rifle to replace the M-249 as a SAW.

CIS Ultimax 100 Mark 4, Colt (gas-piston AR) and H&K G36 have all been entered into the program. Last I heard, the Ultimax 100 Mark 4 was the lead contender.


Chartered Industries of Singapore Ultimax 100 Mark 4


Colt Defense gas-piston LMG/SAW

 

[H2O MAN]

A drum roll please . . .

I like AKs with drums

I have a 100 round drum and a few 75 round drums for my AKs.
T56SHTF with a 75 round drum ~

 

[HorseSoldier]

One way to get around the belt problem: Make your action like a Kalashnikov. The PK did this, and it's been pretty successful. However, if you want your LMG to hit anything in particular (and not just be a good suppressor), then that route leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

PK, in my experience, isn't a whole lot less accurate or a whole lot more reliable than a MAG-58 or M240. It's definitely an improvement over the M60, but that's another story.

Where it really shines in my opinion is being more man portable and better for use use in the assault and such than the 58/240. Neither is really ideal for anything but work in the prone, but the PK feels lighter and more mobile.

The USMC is a more mobile, more dynamic force than the other branches, and so it wants something that will be more organic in the squad.

Someone's been drinking the Kool-aid again . . .

The Corps' problem is that it is less mobile, operationally and tactically than most Army formations. Hence the need to try and trim down the weight carried by the rank and file.

 

[Nolo]

The Corps' problem is that it is less mobile, operationally and tactically than most Army formations. Hence the need to try and trim down the weight carried by the rank and file.

Maybe I should have reworded that:
The Marine Corps is supposed to be more mobile, so a lighter platform is wanted. Whether they are or not is a subject for the experts.

 

[cluttonfred]

I still vote for a downsized and modernized DP-28, really a DPM, with a top-loading STANAG magazine well, flat pan- or double-snail-type 100-round magazine, bottom ejection, an M4 collapsible stock on the recoil spring/buffer housing, synthetic furniture, and offset Picatinny rails for modern optics and fold down back-up sights.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a weapon in the U.S. inventory that actually functioned reliably if it got dirty?

Blend these two pics in your head -- Degtyaryov DPM and Bren-configured Robinson M-96, both from Max P.'s great site -- and you'll get a good idea what I mean.

That Robinson M-96 also gives me an idea. The big complaint with magazine-fed LMGs is usually the weight and awkwardness of the big magazines. With the low spring pressure allowed by a top feed magazine (gravity is your friend), I bet an ordinary STANAG type box magazine would work if extended to 50-rounds capacity, which would be fine with some sort of rate-limiter to keep the rate of fire down. So we could nix the big, clunky pan- or double-snail-type magazines and just go with Bren-style boxes. A Suomi four-column arrangement might also make for very compact box magazine.