Dry Fire Practice

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YOU WILL NOT cure "flinch" and "trigger-jerk" snapping away at home.....
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Odd. That's exactly why you do it. To practice the correct motion and concentration of focus without the distraction of recoil and muzzle blast. So that when you do hit the live-fire range you've established and/or reenforced the correct process in your hands and your mind.

Of course it's not a substitue for live-fire. I don't think anyone said it is. Each shooter will need to learn to work with and ride the action of the gun as it recoils and cycles. For that you will need to do live-fire practice.

But you said dry-firing is "a waste of time," which means it has no place in a training regimen. And that's dead wrong.

When we speak of competition shooters, bulls-eye is far less represented in that set than IDPA and USPSA types these days. And those "go-fast" guys are practicing a purified version of the same thing you say you're teaching. Fastest hits as accurately as they can be delivered at ranges from contact distance to 30 yds, mostly using service pistols that can be carried for personal protection. (And a few race guns, of course.) Does your "CC or CQB" training somehow cover some other set of scenarios to which those skills don't apply?

What this tells me is that many posters are not firing regularly, or not at all;
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Don't let's be too insulting or pedantic. I just counted up empty primer boxes while cleaning out my reloading room. I threw out 5,900 rds. worth from this year's reloading. Now that's not what I'd consider a "LOT" of shooting, but that's just for the one gun... So, while I don't shoot as much as a lot of the posters here, I do hit the range every now and again. I'm vaguely familliar with "noise & recoil." :rolleyes:

not fully realizing that "noise & recoil" are the bane for most shooters
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There's a lot of things that hinder inexperienced shooters from shooting at their best. Noise and recoil are significant, to the newest of newbies, at least, but I'd say the real "bane" of most shooters are poor grip, stance, and trigger control.

And those happen to be things that you can demonstrably improve through repetitious dry-fire practice.

-Sam
 
Extensive dry firing was what improved my expertise with the J-Frame.

While live fire is indispensible, it can be extremely expensive to try to cure a trigger control problem with live fire.
 
What's really weird is that I was able to reduce my split times, reloads, and transition times by using a "useless" dry fire drill based on the El Presidente.

It's too bad no one told me I was just wasting my time.
 
Don't do it with any of the Kel-Tec models. You may break the firing pin or worse might not be able to remove it. Same goes for the CZ-52.
 
Hey, if you boys who dont dry fire dont want to waste your precious time doing so, then dont. It sounds like you have it all figured out, and probably really have no need to fire live ammo either. :neener:

Once you think you have learned and know everything, your actually right back at the beginning. If thats to deep and makes your head hurt, then never mind, it will probably cause you to develop a bad flinch trying to work it all out. Well, at least an annoying twitch anyway. :)
 
I rest my case. :)

Once you stop learning, or believe you can, your stagnating, and back to square one or less.

I once almost thought I knew it all, but I was 18, so I was in for the rude awakening I deserved (I actually did know it all at 14, but the old mans sweep and hook kick knocked it out of me when I tried to prove it :D). Havent known it all or figured it all out since, but it hasnt been for lack of trying. I just know better now. :)

Oh, and about the flinch..... give me an afternoon, and I'll have you flinching so bad, your dad will disown you. :)
 
I dry fired my pair of 642's 10,000 times before even taking them to the range or carrying them. good thing too. Both broke the trigger stud.

New frames, 10k more dry fires each and all is good!

Justin
 
"To deny the benefits of dry fire practice is silly at best. You may debate that it may damage the gun, but even if it does the benefits outweigh the problems it may cause."





I quite agree on the benefits of dry fire practice. I realize I didn't state very emphatically that before, but I'm a wholehearted believer. I do it a LOT, I just don't do the Rugers much unless I have snap caps. I do feel it's best to use snap caps to reduce the chances of damaging some guns that can break parts. We often see comments like "...Rugers are virtually indestrctuble...", that just hasn't been my experience when dry firing them extensively. I surely don't want to find out I've broken transfer bar number 4 when I'm looking over the sights at a frisky grizzly at 5 feet and hear "click". Oops :what: That's a parts breakage I'm NOT willing to accept. Caps, store bought, or home made, are cheap.

Good discussion guys.
 
why would I WANT to learn how to flinch?
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I was being somewhat of a smartass there Jimmy.

But on the serious side, just because you think you've learned not to flinch, doesnt mean that your done forever with it. I dont normally flinch myself, but with a couple of heavy hammering guns, I know my shooting degrades as the number of rounds fired increases. Dry fire "memory", helps keep you focused, and the degradation to a minimum.
 
"just because you think you've learned not to flinch, doesnt mean that your done forever with it." I was taught breathing and muscle control while shooting as a teenager,I am now 56. I think it's held up pretty well. If it works for you go for it but MY shooting isn't lacking because I don't subscribe to any certain style ,technique or training method.
 
We're only two years apart, I'm 54, and I started learning to shoot about 10 years sooner, at 4.

I dont think my shooting is lacking either, but someone always seems to come along and show me something new that often helps it improve.

I'm always open to try something new if I feel it could be productive. You never know until you actually try though, and sometimes, your pleasantly surprised and amazed by the results, sometimes you just shake your head.

If you get stuck on what you "think" is the best your going to do, you'll never know if you dont at least try the new ideas and see what they have to offer.

A couple of specific examples for me were switching from an "open leg sitting position" I was taught as a kid and shot with for years, to the "cross legged" sitting in use by the more competitive shooters of the time. It was at a clinic put on by the USMC MTU. At that time, I was I was shooting at or near expert, but never consistently. After that clinic, a few other pointers, and some work, expert became a more consistent thing. Dry firing by the way, was heavily stressed too, and I also picked up some new tips there too. If you think that you cant get the feel of a rifle recoiling and cycling while dry firing, you'd be amazed at what a quarter, and a buddy can do to improve your shooting, without ever firing a round.

More recently, I switched to a "thumbs forward" grip, from the old "thumbs over thumb" grip. It wasnt an instant sell, but it went pretty quick the more I shot it. Besides my shooting improving, I also found I could more easily and quickly access the switch on the light that sits on the rail of my one SIG. One little change, and two new benefits gained.

Whether we like it or not, we're always lacking in some respect and can always learn something new, if we're willing to do so. Once we stop doing so, we begin to stagnate, and we begin to lose our edge. Same goes for everything, not just shooting. For us older boys, the minute we give in and start slowing down and not staying active, that stagnation sets in and we begin to quickly degrade. Keep that up, and pretty soon, you'll be doing all your shooting from a bench since you cant get into those field positions anymore. Well, its more about getting up from them than getting into them, unless of course, you let that Dunlop get away from you. :)
 
Now if you had just given THAT response instead of post #32 this whole conversation may have taken on a different "flavor". That is well reasoned and well said. I concur with about 98% of it. I didn't say it wasn't helpful ,I just said I didn't do it.
 
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I think dry firing is good for muscle memory, and importantly, it's good for your trigger finger muscle in general. I remember when i started shooting again earlier this year, many triggers felt odd and difficult. Now most of them are pretty easy and easy to control.

I kind of agree with the person who recommends real noise and stress when practicing. Point well taken, but dry firing does much good in terms of keeping the hand in good shape.
 
salesguy - here's a twist, with feedback.

Back in the old days, before snap caps were foisted on the shooting public as a need to have accessory, we used to use a pencil down the bore for dry fire practice. The eraser would absorb the blow of the firing pin, and the pencil would eject from the barrel and mark the target. A cardboard box set at proper height with a dot from a magic marker would be the target. You shoot for group size from about 6-10" away (whatever works, I don't remember the exact distance). It strengthens the arm, improves sight picture and trigger control. Plus, you get the same feedback from your target as using live ammo. It indicates whether you're flinching, or heeling etc. Try practicing with five, 5 shot strings, then measure your groups. When they begin improving with the pencil, they begin improving with the live fire.

As an aside; this can get out of hand. Guys started comparing and bragging about their dry fire groups. Competition ensued, rules were made, the money got heavy. And some shooters began matching their projectiles to brand, weight, length and lot number. Keep in mind, its just fun practice.

I prefer a Berol "Black Warrior" #2.5 x 130mm

Kerf
 
Kerf said:
It strengthens the arm, improves sight picture and trigger control. Plus, you get the same feedback from your target as using live ammo. It indicates whether you're flinching, or heeling etc. ... When they begin improving with the pencil, they begin improving with the live fire.
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Mad Magyar said:
Kerf, I rest my case
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So we're all in agreement then?

Good.

-Sam
 
How else would you learn to work the trigger?

It also helps you steady your eye and arm on a target. No would ever said it trains you to deal with noise or recoil. But recoil and noise don't mean squat if you can't point and click.

I never dry-fire my .22s. That said, the manual to my Ruger Single Six rimfire, if I'm remembering correctly, says you can do it without damaging anything.

All the other guns get dry-fired. I don't watch much TV, but "shooting" annoying faces on the screen is an amusing way to do it. Annoys the ___ out of the wifey, though.
 
I have A_ZOOMs for each caliber handgun I own and they get fairly regular usage. Especially with a new gun I can learn the trigger pull and sights cheaper by clicking at home than by (expensively) blasting away at the range.

And I DO dry fire my .22s, auto and revolver. Use empty shell cases positioned so that the firing pin never strikes the same spot more than once; easily get 4-5 snaps from each.
 
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