EGW Undersize 9mm Die Issue

[mohunter55]

I have been using the EGW Undersize 9mm Die for loading Hornady 115gr FMJ and 124 grain FMJ. I have found that this causes the bullet to seat crooked which causes it to fail the case gage. I find that if i don't use the EGW die and use my standard RCBS resizer, that i do not have any issues, meaning the bullets seat straight and they pass the case gauge. Anyone else have this issue or know how to over come it. I am reloading on a Hornady Lock n Load now. I can't remember having a problem with the EGW die when using my single stage. I'm assuming its something with my technique, set up, press, something...it just seems like the EGW die shouldnt cause the bullets to be seated slightly crooked.

 

[243winxb]

Are there 2 different expanders being used. Could 1 be larger/different then the other? How about the seater plug that guides/pushes the bullet into the case. Are you using the same one? Fit is important here.

 

[918v]

Sizing has nothing to do with seating.

 

[Walkalong]

Could just be a bad sizer. I bought a U die for .38 Super and it was terrible. It was straight, but it had a sharp entrance and cut into the brass. Ever try to grind carbide? What a pain. Nearly impossible with standard tools.

Everyone has a lemon now and then.

 

[918v]

But how would his sizer induce crooked bullet seating? Help me understand the mechanics involved.

 

[Walkalong]

Crooked carbide insert. Been there, done that.

 

[zeke]

While there are benefits to the Lee undersize die, sizing the case's down to a reduced diameter can cause seating straightness problems (assuming using a reduced diam belling plug). Am guessing it is due to the extra force required to seat the bullet, combined with an uneven brass thickness. Had similiar situations, depending on brass, with the 9mm, 40 and 45 versions. Using a bell plug that allows you to set the bullet straight while seating helps considerable, as does a Redding comp (pistol version) seating die.

 

[918v]

The Lee U die does not size the whole case more, just the base. The neck portion is unaffected.

 

[mohunter55]

zeke- what do you mean by bell plug? are you talking like a hornady seating die with the bullet seater stem inside it? I have 2 theories (I think both have been stated already) on what i experience and both invole the undersize die as the issue, which i think is quite obvious since i dont have issues when using a normal resizing die.

1. The die is sizing so much that this causes extra force to be used to seat the bullet, which is causing the bullets to slightly buldge one side of the case. I think this problem is also enhanced from using the powderfunnels ptx expander, which seems to only expand the very top of the case, whereas the RCBS expander seems to expand more down in the case.

2. The other issue would be that i have a slight crooked expander, but the more i think about it, i dont think this is the case. I'm pretty sure that I used to use the RCBS expander with the Undersize die and I did not have any issues. I stopped doing this a while back since i wanted to seat and taper crimp in seperate steps.

I should also mention that I shot these rounds and they function fine in my lone wolf glock 19 barrel. Its just that they look like crap b/c the slightly push out one side of the case. Accuracy seems fine at 10 yards, although Im sure they would be affected farther out. I'll do a test tonight if i have time and see if I have the same problems when using the RCBS expander. I may just seat and crimp in 1 step.

 

[mohunter55]

I also should mention that i use the EGW die in 45 and 40 on my Lock n Load and never had a problem. I'm assuming the 9mm might have a thicker case then the 45 and 40.

 

[Walkalong]

Main difference is the 9MM case is tapered.

 

[mohunter55]

reloaded tonight. I tried using this setup: EGW die, RCBS expander, hornady powder drop, hornady powder cop, RCBS seat/taper crimp. This gave me better results than before with using the Powderfunnels PTX kit for the hornady powder measure, but i still would occasionaly have a few that fail the case gage. I ended up switching to the RCBS resizing die and loaded up 100 using that instead of the EGW die. I did not have a single round fail the gage and all rounds look great. I think i'll just discontinue use of the EGW die. I bought it for an extra security measure, assuming I'd get better neck tension, but all it has led to is problems.

 

[918v]

To what diameter did the EGW die size the case mouth?

 

[gamestalker]

Walkalong nailed it. 9mm is a tapered case unlike your .40 and .45 cases. Either live with some that are a little buldged, or go back to a more standardized process.

 

[mohunter55]

I contacted EGW and might be sending the die back in. I'm trying to figure out what the EGW die should be sizing the cases to now. Does anyone know? Here is what I get. EGW die = 3.68-3.7". RCBS Die = 3.72-3.73". I'd say EGW die is mostly 3.7 and RCBS is 3.72. Cases used are Remington, Winchester & Federal.

 

[918v]

What are those measurements?

You said it sizes your case too tight. To what diameter does it size the case mouth?

 

[mohunter55]

those are case mouth measurements

 

[rcmodel]

3.68-3.7". RCBS Die = 3.72-3.73". I'd say EGW die is mostly 3.7 and RCBS is 3.72.

those are case mouth measurements

In what country??

Here in the U.S.A. we measure in thousandths of an inch.

A 9mm case mouth, after sizing, should measure about .370" OD.
ID should be about .350" before expanding & belling depending on the brand of the brass.

Why are you trying to use the EGW under-size sizing die anyway??

rc

 

[mohunter55]

oops, not sure why i put 3.7's...meant .37's. I could see how that would make no sense. I used the EGW die because i wanted better neck tension. The hole thing came about because i was reloading 40 S&W for a glock with a lone wolf barrel shooting lead and i wanted to try to avoid any issues. It seems in the 9mm using the EGW creates a whole set of issues that i dont have when i dont use it.

 

[rcmodel]

used the EGW die because i wanted better neck tension.

If the standard die is resizing the case to .370", you got plenty of neck tension.
Unless your expander plug is too big.

It really doesn't matter how small you size the case mouth if the expander opens it back up too big again!
All you are accomplishing by under-sizing and over-expanding is over-working the brass so it will split sooner.

The expander plug should be around .352" to no more then .353".

If it is bigger then that, make it smaller with a drill & some emery cloth.

rc

 

[918v]

If your EGW die is sizing the case mouth to .370" and the RCBS die is sizing the neck to .372" then then I seriously doubt the .002" difference will cause crooked bullet seating. Your brass may be crap.

 

[mohunter55]

yeah, im stumped. I just plan on using the standard die now, no real reason to use the EGW die when the standard die works just fine for me. Although I may pick up a lee factory crimp die, just to lay around with - to see if it smooths out the side of the case.

 

[Walkalong]

Why "smooth out" the side of the case? It is just telling you you have good neck tension. Won't hurt a thing.

 

[zeke]

The Lee undersize (u) die can size the case as far down as a standard resizing die. Started using one in 45 acp, so i could use rem cases with jacketed bullets (win 230 fmj)and significantly lesson/eliminate bullet setback. Also started using one for 40 s&W when my Browning HP (really strong stock recoil spring) would shove the bullets back, again when using Rem brass and copper clad bullets. Am only sizing the case to below the base of the seated bullet, after sizing the case using a standard resizing die. This essentially neck sizes the brass. This results in a bulge when the bullet is seated. It is also an extra step some may not feel neccessary. Am not sizing the whole case to a reduced dia. If the bullet is not aligned with the case, or the brass is an uneven thickness on one side, the bulge can be more pronounced on one side. I use Redding comp seating dies which insure the bullet is better aligned with the case. Am not "reexpanding" the case mouth to standard size. Am using pistol cases to "self align the resizing and belling plug ", before tightening the lock ring.

This is much less of a problem with 9mm brass, but i use it anyway for jacketed bullets with minimal bearing length and seated out closer to max COL.

 

[mohunter55]

Well, I've been bored lately and decided to start doing some more research on my slight bulge issue with the EGW die. I ordered the below parts from hornady:
290049 PTX POWDER MEASURE STOP QTY 1 $7.80 EA
290030 PTXPOWDER DROP EXP UNVRSL.355 QTY 1 $10.27 EA

I'm going to try out their new PTX expanders and the new stop they created for the powder measure. I currently use a Powderfunnels.com expander, which does not expand the ID, which i think results in some of the problem as well. I'm going to see if this combination will work with the EGW die. They said it should ship sometime next week. I'll post back with my results.

Yes - I know that it works fine using all the standard dies, but like i said I'm bored and I want to see if the the problem is really a combination of the EGW die sizing slightly more and the Powderfunnels not expanding the ID of the case, which causes increased force when seating which causes the bullet to tilt slightly.