Mike Irwin
Member
Rader,
Sorry, I disagree with your assessment of the effect of the French on America's quest for independence.
The French WERE instrumental in the US winning recognition from Britain -- they didn't simply shorten the war by a year or two, they preserved the ability of the United States to make war at all, most importantly by providing credit and, perhaps even more importantly, firearms and powder.
"No, all the French did in blockading the mouth of the Chesapeake was save Cornwallis the effort at a Dunkirk-style evac under fire. He would have lost all of his cannon, powder, and around 1/3-1/2 of his men even if the Royal Navy had been able to get through."
I'm not certain why you think this, but it's incorrect. Had the French not been at Yorktown, their artillery wouldn't have been, either. About 80 percent of the artillery at Yorktown had been provided by the French, having landed in Rhode Island in 1780. And that was just light artillery, the kind with which you can't make an effective siege.
Here's the REALLY important factor in this scenario, however.
Cornwallis went into Yorktown in September. The Battle of the Capes, which kept the British fleet from rescuing Cornwallis, happened in the first few days of September, September 5-10, BEFORE Washington's troops were even remotely in place. Up until the last few weeks of September, only a few thousand American troops, at best, opposed Cornwallis' nearly 10,000 men in Yorktown.
Had the British punched through the French fleet, Corwallis and his men and supplies would have been out of Virginia LONG before the combined American/French army got there in numbers.
In fact, it was nearly 3 weeks after the Battle of the Virginia Capes that the combined Army arrived in any numbers until, at last, on September 26, the American and French have a force that outnumbered Cornwallis.
What they still didn't have, however, was any means of pursuing the siege -- in other words, heavy artillery.
In order to do that, heavy siege guns had to be landed from the French fleet and carted overland to positions outside of Corwallis fortifications. If the British had defeated the French fleet, though, those siege guns wouldn't have been available, and breaking through the Yorktown fortifications would have been virtually impossible.
No serious artillery bombardment of British positions began until the afternoon of October 9, now nearly a MONTH after Cornwallis took up residency in the area.
So you see, the activity of the French fleet in the Battle of the Capes was absolutely CRITICAL in pinning Cornwallis into an ultimately indefensible position.
Without the French fleet as the anvil, there was no expectation that Cornwallis would even still be in Yorktown, which is the biggest reason why it took three weeks for Washington to gather the combined army to lay the siege in the first place.
As for Cornwallis losing his cannon, shot, and powder, again, I'm not sure why you think this.
The Royal Navy had proven itself, time and time again, caple of moving large amounts of heavy artillery either to or from shipboard very quickly, and as you can see from the information above, the British would have had weeks in which to move their supplies with little to no serious opposition from the American army.
Given the types of ships that were headed to Yorktown, and the rather limited amount of artillery that Corwallis had, it's unlikely that he would have lost much of his artillery at all.
As well, by this time, British armies in America had quite a bit of experience in moving artillery by sea in numerous hops around the Eastern seaboard.
Sorry, I disagree with your assessment of the effect of the French on America's quest for independence.
The French WERE instrumental in the US winning recognition from Britain -- they didn't simply shorten the war by a year or two, they preserved the ability of the United States to make war at all, most importantly by providing credit and, perhaps even more importantly, firearms and powder.
"No, all the French did in blockading the mouth of the Chesapeake was save Cornwallis the effort at a Dunkirk-style evac under fire. He would have lost all of his cannon, powder, and around 1/3-1/2 of his men even if the Royal Navy had been able to get through."
I'm not certain why you think this, but it's incorrect. Had the French not been at Yorktown, their artillery wouldn't have been, either. About 80 percent of the artillery at Yorktown had been provided by the French, having landed in Rhode Island in 1780. And that was just light artillery, the kind with which you can't make an effective siege.
Here's the REALLY important factor in this scenario, however.
Cornwallis went into Yorktown in September. The Battle of the Capes, which kept the British fleet from rescuing Cornwallis, happened in the first few days of September, September 5-10, BEFORE Washington's troops were even remotely in place. Up until the last few weeks of September, only a few thousand American troops, at best, opposed Cornwallis' nearly 10,000 men in Yorktown.
Had the British punched through the French fleet, Corwallis and his men and supplies would have been out of Virginia LONG before the combined American/French army got there in numbers.
In fact, it was nearly 3 weeks after the Battle of the Virginia Capes that the combined Army arrived in any numbers until, at last, on September 26, the American and French have a force that outnumbered Cornwallis.
What they still didn't have, however, was any means of pursuing the siege -- in other words, heavy artillery.
In order to do that, heavy siege guns had to be landed from the French fleet and carted overland to positions outside of Corwallis fortifications. If the British had defeated the French fleet, though, those siege guns wouldn't have been available, and breaking through the Yorktown fortifications would have been virtually impossible.
No serious artillery bombardment of British positions began until the afternoon of October 9, now nearly a MONTH after Cornwallis took up residency in the area.
So you see, the activity of the French fleet in the Battle of the Capes was absolutely CRITICAL in pinning Cornwallis into an ultimately indefensible position.
Without the French fleet as the anvil, there was no expectation that Cornwallis would even still be in Yorktown, which is the biggest reason why it took three weeks for Washington to gather the combined army to lay the siege in the first place.
As for Cornwallis losing his cannon, shot, and powder, again, I'm not sure why you think this.
The Royal Navy had proven itself, time and time again, caple of moving large amounts of heavy artillery either to or from shipboard very quickly, and as you can see from the information above, the British would have had weeks in which to move their supplies with little to no serious opposition from the American army.
Given the types of ships that were headed to Yorktown, and the rather limited amount of artillery that Corwallis had, it's unlikely that he would have lost much of his artillery at all.
As well, by this time, British armies in America had quite a bit of experience in moving artillery by sea in numerous hops around the Eastern seaboard.
France. Thanks for starting this thread and reminding me how bad I loathe the modern French. What a bunch of ungrateful 