Exactly how concerned should I be about lead?

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MikePGS

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I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, but i couldn't quite determine where it would be most suitable.


As we all know, much of modern day ammunition is composed of lead for various reasons that I'm not going to get into here. Generally if we take simple precautions, it will not affect us in a sufficient quantity to give us a detrimental affect to our health. That being said, my girlfriend is pregnant and if at all possible, i don't want to cause her or our soon (6 months or so... seems very close!) to be born child any complications due to my enthusiasm to exercise my 2nd amendment rights and oh yeah protect ourselves from harm. I know many companies make products with lead-free primers and brass enclosed bases which greatly reduce the exposure of lead at the firing line (i usually shoot at indoor ranges, need to find an outdoor one to further reduce this risk), and there are a couple of rounds from Winchester that are entirely composed of non-toxic materials (lead free primers and some sort of tin alloy for the bullet). I know to wash my clothes seperatly and to then run an empty cycle afterwards. Now, i know many of you are both parents and shooters so i was wondering if any of you took this into consideration and or adjusted your shooting habits or anything in order to minimize this risk as much as possible. Also, using FMJ or JHP rounds, how much lead is deposited in the barrel anyways? See i've only rented handguns at this point so i've never had the... pleasure... of cleaning one. Any advice or input would be greatly appreciated.
 
The lead bullets themselves aren't actually that bad, there really isn't a mechanism for the lead to get transmitted to you ( assuming you don't swallow the bullets );). The primers do contain some lead and when fired the lead becomes gaseous so it can pose some risk if you shoot a lot (a whole lot) in an unventilated indoor range, but that the risk would be to you. Assuming you wash your hands, wash your own clothes and clean your weapons in the garage away from your wife (like it or not you're hitched for life now) there shouldn't be any risk.

There was another thread on this same topic some time ago, you might want to search for it there was a lot of good information in it.

To answer your question about fouling from jacketed rounds, there is very little if any lead deposited in the rifling. It's not hard to clean up any copper residue or lead fouling, WalMart sells nice cleaning kits for very little money.
 
I am not a doctor or a health "person" but I wouldn't think that there is a problem. I grew up around lead paint and walked around half the ponds in this county when I was a kid with a splitshot in my mouth so I wouldn't loose it as did most other young boys I knew and we are still here with no health problems. I am not saying eating bullits or sinkers won't hurt you but they make it sound like being with in a square mile of it will do you in.

I make my own sinkers and I am careful not to breath in the fumes. When my wife answered and qeustionaire at my sons school years back they panicked when my wife mentioned that my son was around lead. We didn't think about it. They asked if he could be checked for lead in his system and we let his doctor check him. Neg. No sign he was ever around it. I had a doctor check me for couriosity and I came back neg.

This is another topic that I get going on. The FDA seems to be abunch of idiots.

Cancer is through the roof. Everyother kid has autism and most 12 year old girls are in C cups. Healthier society??? The grocery store is more dangerous then lead bullits or the guns that shot them.
 
I work in the printing business and for many years type was made of a hardened lead alloy called lynotype. We quit using it 15 years ago but for hundreds of years type setters handled it all day every day and I NEVER heard of a printer having health problems related to lead. I personaly think that the hazards are being exagerated for "other" reasons. We had one guy in our shop who is now retired who cast and handled lead type daily for nearly half a century without ill effects. I myself handled it daily for about 15 years and still cast and handle bullets made of the left over lynotype. That stuff makes hard bullets!
 
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myself and alot of folks i have been shooting around have and continue to shoot lead for the lord only knows how long. i see nothing wrong with them, but i am not that educated of man. i take all the things that are stated with a grain of salt. this week to much rock and roll can cause cancer, next week it is to much turkey! to much of anything is bad for you and everyone is gonna die eventually.
 
I don't think you need to worry to much. Take sensible precautions and use common sense and you will be fine.

I personally don't worry about lead unless it is headed in my direction at 900fps. :what:
 
Some people aren't happy unless they make everyone else as paranoid and frightened as they are, so they can then feel normal. Do you have white rings in your fingernails? are your gums white? if not, what makes you think you are in any danger? And why would your wife and baby be at secondary hazard? Lighten up...
 
Good article, by THR's own pax:

http://www.corneredcat.com/Safety/lead.aspx

Basically, I don't eat when cleaning my guns or when shooting on an indoor range and wash my hands well afterward, and if I allow one of my children to hold a gun, I have them wash their hands well afterward. On an outdoor range, I don't use open cups, but drink from a bottle with a screw cap and keep it closed when I'm not drinking.

The main vector for lead exposure on an indoor range will be inhalation of the smoke (most primers are lead styphnate), if the range is not well ventilated. On an outdoor range, exposure via that route is negligible.

I sometimes use nitrile gloves when cleaning a badly fouled gun, but mostly to keep powder solvent off my hands (so I don't smell like Hoppes #9 for the next eight hours).
 
I started washing my hands after shooting or handling raw lead, like soft lead bullets, pellets, weights, sinkers etc (jacketed are still not much of a problem.)

I try not to contaminate too many objects by touching them between handling lead and washing my hands.
However it is probably just the paranoid individuals getting to me.

Many people have used lead on a wide scale without health effects. The main concern is cooking utensils or liquid containers with lead. Many types of pewter use lead. Pewter is made into cups, spoons and other utensils.
Avoid pewter unless you know it is a variety that contains no lead for eating utensils.


Many lead glasses, or "crystal" have been made for centuries because the addition of lead gives a very high refractory index. Up to 35% lead is used in some and they sparkle better than any other glasses.
However acidic (many juices )or alcoholic beverages can leach the lead into the drink. That can pose a health risk.

However lead itself is not that dangerous to you in the enviornment (unless you work in a lead mine.) You simply shouldn't eat it. It displaces calcium in the bones, and accumulates. It is not usualy an accute problem.
Over time it can take its toll on the kidneys or other susceptible organs.
Of course there is a long list of things it can effect or cause, many people around lead a lot don't experience them. The lead can cause them, but hundreds of prescription medications given out like candy are even worse for the body.
Look up the symptoms of chronic poisoning if you are concerned. Accute poisoning is highly unlikely unless you snack on it.

Many people with bullets lodged in them for decades are perfectly fine. Those are lead bullets sitting in thier body that have not been removed.

The danger of lead is real, however it is vhastly over stated. If you don't cook with it or drink from it, and wash your hands before handling food or eating utensils you should be just fine.

Furthermore, because it acts like certain minerals in the body, taking larger quantities of those minerals prior or around lead exposure might help to reduce the bio availability of lead that does make it into your blood stream.
I take quality calcium or eat or drink something with a lot in it when I handle lead a lot for that reason. If your bloodstream already has a lot of the couple minerals lead mimics in the body, less lead will actualy make it into your bones or other places prior to being expelled from the body.
(Don't overdue it on any mineral, they displace other healthy good minerals in your system as well. Taking a lot of one vitamin or mineral can make you defecient in another.)
 
I am not a doctor or a health "person" but I wouldn't think that there is a problem. I grew up around lead paint and walked around half the ponds in this county when I was a kid with a splitshot in my mouth so I wouldn't loose it as did most other young boys I knew and we are still here with no health problems. I am not saying eating bullits or sinkers won't hurt you but they make it sound like being with in a square mile of it will do you in.
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+1 on that!!!

I grew up around lead as well . . . .I had lead .17mm lead pellets in my mouth most every day, hunting pigeons and other birds. Swallowed quite a few during excitement as well. Also helped my dad make his own lead sinkers . . and at the time did not think twice about being in a garage with a boiling pot of melted lead giving off 'toxic' fumes.

I have never had myself tested for lead, but I am now all of 58yrs young . . . . and still going . . . maybe a little 'leadfooted' at times :D
 
Thank all of you for the good information and advice. I'll definitely have to check out that info in the THR library (something i'm sure i'm underusing since i've never actually been there :p). It's strange i'm more concerned about the future child than I am myself in that regard. Welcome to fatherhood i guess, eh?
 
I can't stop thinking about the possible ramifications of the lead dust in the soil and water.

We know that lead dust and vapors are created by the ignition of the primer, exposed bullet base vaporization, friction between the bullet and the barrel during firing, and fragmentation of the bullet upon impact with a hard surface.

Obviously these can be mitigated somewhat by lead-free primers, TMJ or enclosed-base ammunition, and even lead-free bullets.

Those options not-withstanding, were is all that lead dust going? Is it not settling into the soil (outdoor ranges) or being tracked out of the range into cars, homes, yards, etc... (indoor ranges)?

It never "goes away", it just moves around (basically). Isn't it just sitting out there to get inhaled (once stirred up by any of a number of mechanisms), eaten (primarily by small children who put their hands in their mouths all the time), or drank (if it gets washed into the water supply by rain, irrigation, etc...)?

We might say, "It's such a small amount, it doesn't matter...", but when millions of people are shooting on a regular basis, it becomes more than a "small amount" rather quickly.

I am not bashing shooting and I'm not an "anti". I own a handgun. I really like the act of shooting. Unfortunately I'm unable to enjoy shooting because of this issue. In fact, it has caused me significant distress, well beyond the realm of shooting. I have a beautiful baby daughter. I can't live with the thought of lead that I "put out there" hurting someone else's child in such a major way (impaired cognitive development and the numerous other maladies associated with lead ingestion in children).

Maybe I've completely blown the issue out of proportion, but regardless it is something that everyone needs to be aware of and at least make an educated decision(s) about.

Stay safe and take care.
 
During normal handling and use, not too much risk. Just wash hands, change clothers, etc when done shooting/loading/counting ammo


\\\\\Wise N. Hiemer mode on

Now if several small pieces of lead/alloy are coming your direction in multiple hundreds (or thousands) of feet per second....

\\\\Wise N. Hiemer mode off
 
I'm the outlier here:

Read PAX'a article - she hits all the points.

You can be a paranoic health nut like how I got when my wife was pregnant and only shoot the TMJ/lead free primer handgun ammo, only on r-e-a-lly well ventilated ranges (you don't want the lead dust cloud from the guy in the next lane to negate your abatement efforts). For rifles, I shoot the lead-free frangible 5.56. Somewhat more pricey, but worth it for piece of mind.

The lead-free ammo helps keep household lead dust down, too, when cleaning. I did a lead test in my hobby area and got quite the surprise (even the floor!)

Scotty B:

You are right about the dust. That's why I have "range shoes" that only get used in indoor/outdoor ranges. If going prone outdoors, I have some old navy coveralls I slip on. OSHA tested the FBI Academy barracks in 1996 and found the carpets were totally saturated with lead from the firing ranges, tracked in on shoes. A USFS outdoor range near Roanoke, VA was analyzed by a VA Tech grad student who found a lot of lead dust residue stretching from the firing line to the impact berm.

As for other people's kids, well all I can do is patronize responsible ranges and help get the word out on potential lead issues in the RKBA community.
 
Maybe I've completely blown the issue out of proportion,
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I'd say so, but I understand your concerns.

Think about it this way:

If lead on the ground, leaching into water tables is so hazardous, we'd all be sick. Lead is mined from the ground. Also...If you handle silver, you're essentially handling lead. All silver has some lead content, and all lead has some silver content. The two metals occur together naturally. Wherever you find one, you find the other. The reason that silver isn't refined to a pure state is that it's too expensive to get that last fraction of a percent of lead out of it. So...the best that we get is 99.99% pure.

I live within 5 statute miles of the first commercial silver mine in the US. When it was productive, both metals were taken from it in nearly like amounts...and it was a lot. Not sure how long that "Silver Hill" has been shut down now. Rumor has it that it went flat because the silver ran out...but there's still plenty of lead in that thar hill. Given the recent rise in the price of lead, they may reopen it.
 
I can't stop thinking about the possible ramifications of the lead dust in the soil and water.

We know that lead dust and vapors are created by the ignition of the primer, exposed bullet base vaporization, friction between the bullet and the barrel during firing, and fragmentation of the bullet upon impact with a hard surface.

Obviously these can be mitigated somewhat by lead-free primers, TMJ or enclosed-base ammunition, and even lead-free bullets.

Those options not-withstanding, were is all that lead dust going? Is it not settling into the soil (outdoor ranges) or being tracked out of the range into cars, homes, yards, etc... (indoor ranges)?

It never "goes away", it just moves around (basically). Isn't it just sitting out there to get inhaled (once stirred up by any of a number of mechanisms), eaten (primarily by small children who put their hands in their mouths all the time), or drank (if it gets washed into the water supply by rain, irrigation, etc...)?

We might say, "It's such a small amount, it doesn't matter...", but when millions of people are shooting on a regular basis, it becomes more than a "small amount" rather quickly.

I am not bashing shooting and I'm not an "anti". I own a handgun. I really like the act of shooting. Unfortunately I'm unable to enjoy shooting because of this issue. In fact, it has caused me significant distress, well beyond the realm of shooting. I have a beautiful baby daughter. I can't live with the thought of lead that I "put out there" hurting someone else's child in such a major way (impaired cognitive development and the numerous other maladies associated with lead ingestion in children).

Maybe I've completely blown the issue out of proportion, but regardless it is something that everyone needs to be aware of and at least make an educated decision(s) about.

Stay safe and take care.
Click to expand...

Also keep in mind that lead actualy comes out of the ground to begin with, and in ores where it is very close the same material. It doesn't just come from the ground, but it already present in various ores in high concentrations many places without ill effect.
It has rain water fall on it, that rain water goes to rivers streams and lakes. It is naturaly occuring and in large amounts.
In fact there is many locations it occurs naturaly throughout the United States, just not in the types of ores that are commercialy desired for processing, in dense quantities. So they just leave it there and mine in better locations in the world. (there is some mining, but there is many more unmined locations not seen as commercialy viable.)

The mining process really stirs up tons of lead. It gets moved hauled, crushed and dust and particles are numerous. It can create dangerous areas around such mines. Yet a short time after mining operations cease the problems go away. It is not a persistant toxic chemical. Other minerals bind to it in the environment and it becomes part of the earth again.

The main concerns you hear about is with birds because they have a gizzard. Birds swallow gravel, rocks, (and a lead pellet is a rock to them) and other items and then use them to grind up food in a muscular sack like organ. They then use strong acids on them. So they end up with powdered lead, then saturated in acids. That leaves very large surface area and lead concentrated solutions. Birds are also very light boned animals, and very susceptible to many poisons (hence the bird used in mines of old.) In fact just putting a Tefal (non stick Teflon coating) pan on the stove and heating it can make poisonous fumes that will cause a bird in the room to drop dead. Yet while it is probably not good for you, people do it all the time without ill effect.

So very high concentrations of lead in a very small, light weight, and susceptible animal causes problems.


Lead is however much safer than most ballisticly effective alternatives. There has been a lot of evidence showing many lead alternatives like tungsten (used in hevi shot and many others) is actualy many times more toxic than lead. So all of that time and effort spent to deviate from lead may be putting as at even more risk.
Current laws don't even allow most alternative affordable metals to be employed in handguns. They become "armor piercing" projectiles outlawed at the federal level.

As for primers. Well many new lead alternative primers work well. The shelf life however is much lower. I would much rather trust my life to something like lead azide that has been sitting around for years than to most lead free alternatives.

Making ammunition less effective or less reliable over some percieved but easily managed risk is silly. People only live so long as it is, and many people near that age have used lead products all thier live's.

As for other people's kids, well all I can do is patronize responsible ranges and help get the word out on potential lead issues in the RKBA community.
Click to expand...
Well the end result is just going to be much less effective and reliable ammunition. It will also increase the price of ammunition dramaticly, and give antis yet another tool in thier efforts to restrict it, as they are already doing in CA (to save the condor.)

As for conservation? Having one kid less (while third world nations have many and then immigrate here to displace you and your genes anyways) would conserve more of nature than not shooting millions of rounds of ammunition :neener: A lot of lead in your diet can help to achieve that ;)

So bottom line is most effective dense materials cost a lot more, and many of them are more toxic than lead. Heavy metals are usualy toxic, lead is one of the least toxic. Bismuth would work and be less toxic, but bismuth is mainly produced as a byproduct of things like lead production, and it costs much more. Bismuth hit $19 a pound in june 2007. Most people were complaining because lead went over $1 per pound and set an unprecedented price in ammunition.
Bismuth prices would be even higher if there was as much demand for it as lead.
What are you going to do if your ammunition costs 10-20 or even adjusting for increased demand perhaps 30x more than it does now? It is also not that malleable and so expansion is much less.

You know if we all just shot gold and platinum bullets no danger of toxicity would be posed to anything and they would be effective. Perhaps we should try that. :rolleyes:
 
My lead count skyrocketed due to practicing a lot on an indoor range with shabby ventilation. Others that I know who don't engage in that same practice have never had any issues.

Follow the lead mitigation recommendations, the lead on your clothes and you will likely not bother you at all, but with a developing little person floating around, you have to be much more sensitive about such things.
 
Refined lead is very stable, thats why they use it to store radioactive materials. Don't eat the stuff and you will be fine.
 
I know that they used lead pipe for water services many years ago, and I know a few places where that old pipe is still in use. I think the biggest problem with shooting is airborne lead that could be inhaled or other wise ingested. Just wash real good and change and wash your clothes after shooting and I don't think its a real big issue.
 
If lead was a serious problem NO ONE my age (70) would be alive.

We grew up with lead paint, lead in our water system, lead toys painted with lead paint, lead in gasoline, lead was everywhere. I'm positive we came into contact every day with lead.

For years many of us shooters shot lead bullets at steel backstops in poorly ventilated indoor pistol ranges.

Many of us cast and handled lead bullets, myself for 40+ years.

If there was a national cause of death record somewhere, I would bet the farm that death by lead poisoning would be so small as to be non existent.

But if a government agency is formed to find a problem, to protect their jobs they will create a problem.:rolleyes:
 
I've read that children's lead levels have come down quite a bit since it was phased out of fuel. I suppose the biggest concerns for me are lead in the water supply (from the lead dust, not from the pipes) and lead dust on the ground that can be tracked into house or eaten by small children playing in the dirt.

Even if the act of shooting doesn't add much, multiply it by the millions of people who shoot and you've got at a minimum enough lead out there to cause some problems....

If it weren't for this stupid lead thing I would be shooting all the time. :(
 
i do worry about lead flying through the air at 800 fps and weighing 'bout 230 grains.;)

seriously, i have been reloading and casting since '73. i have and do take logical precautions and i show no ill effects. seriously, i have been reloading and shooting since '73 and i show no ill effects. seriousily, i have beeen reloading and shooting since '73 and i show no ill effects. i've been logical......

........what were we talking about?
 
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