Federal #41 primers?

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Ritchie

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I've been using CCI #41 primers for .223 and .30 carbine. Just noticed that the last #41s I bought had a slightly different looking box, turns out it's because they are made by Federal. How do these compare with the CCIs? Does the #41 specification cover just impact sensitity, or does it include the strength of the primer flame? IOW, how close are they in performance?
 
Seems to me the correct answer to that question would come from the people who make the primers, rather than the internet, where it seems everyone has an opinion, but very few facts.

My suggestion is to send an e-mail to customer service at both CCI and Federal and ask them.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
Can not comment on CCI made by Federal (Do you have a picture of the box(s)?????????????

as to the #41 this from CCI direct:

I do not agree that the rifle should be pointed down, it should be pointed UP but that is what the NRA says.;)

RE: CCI Ammo - Ask the Expert Form September 29, 2015 7:24 PM

From:

cciexpert

the thick cup primer in the #41 primer and the anvil angle change to prevent slam fires, is not only to keep the firearm from going full auto. The bolt when turned loose when loading the first round can cause a slam fire when the bolt stops and the free floating firing pin slams forward and when pointed at your feet is not a good day at the range. Show up at the range with 10 toes and leave with 5 is never good.


Make Every Shot Count!
Justin M.
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
CCI/Speer
(800)379-1732
 
Federal primers nay be viewed here and there is no Federal #41 I am aware of of listed with Federal Primers. The closest would likely be Federal AR Primers. Also I know of no connection between CCI and Federal. However rather than the Internet I suggest that Federal may be contacted here.

While I have never had a need to contact Federal I have on a few occasions contacted CCI and they were always a pleasure and helpful with questions.

Ron
 
Federal & CCI and a boatload of other companies all fall under the Vista Outdoor Company ... so yes CCI & Federal are connected ... both are owned by Vista Outdoor

So are RCBS, Alliant, Speer, Savage Arms and many more...
 
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family resemblance

So two companies are both owned by a third, this does not mean that their products are the same. Federal does not show the #41 on their product web site.
 

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The #41 primer refers to a military specification. There are those who deny that there is such a thing as a mil spec primer, but clearly there is. This is the top drawing for the military #41 primer:

Primer%2041%20drawing_zpsgyii97yg.jpg

This is the top drawing for the #34 military primer, which is a large rifle primer.

No34primer_zps010b4fce.jpg

The military used to make weapons and ammunition and knew enough to tailor the ammunition to the weapon. Military weapons tend to have heavy firing pins and robust ignition systems. Heavy, free floating firing pins required less sensitive primers, or the slamfire rate would be unacceptable. I am of the opinion the original military primer specifications required the use of a specific priming compound and primer materials, such as cup thickness, cup hardness, anvil angle, and anvil material. The bridge distance was probably specified. Of course there would be a sensitivity requirement for the primer.

Incidentally, there are a lot of military primers and military priming compositions, this table shows primer mixes:

PrimerComposition.jpg

I am of the opinion that the product specifications that required specific materials and compositions have been relaxed to performance specifications. That is, the primer has to meet sensitivity specifications, temperature requirements, ignition requirements, and interface requirements. That would allow Federal, for example, to make a "mil spec" primer using their own primer compound. As long as the Federal primer worked with all the powders, rifles, machine guns, in all environmental conditions, their primer would be acceptable.

Any contractor who makes ammunition for the US Army makes "mil spec" ammunition. In 1999 (or so) CCI decided to make its military primer product line available to the public. Till then, all that was available were the more sensitive commercial primers. Civilian firearms are horribly maintained, hardly anyone changes mainsprings, or any springs, Civilians maintain their firearms about the same they maintain their vehicles.


DSCF2767%206-20-15%20Dilapidated%20car_zps8qwtzh3k.jpg

Given the weak, marginal ignitions systems found on most Civilian firearms, IT DON’T GO BANG: FIRES, HANGFIRES, MISFIRES AND SHORT ORDER COOKS IN JERSEY http://gunhub.com/ammunition/42928-don-t-go-bang-fires-hangfires-misfires-short-order.html the deterioration of mainsprings only cause ammunition companies headaches as civilians with antique blunder busses blame the ammunition for not going bang, not their ill maintained antique ignition systems. This causes a race to the bottom as ammunition companies have an financial incentive to make the most sensitive primers possible, to eliminate customer complaints about their ammunition. This was all fine as long as civilians only had revolvers and bolt guns, but when military automatic rifles appeared in vast numbers, the frequency of slamfire incidents and reports increased to become a noticeable problem. Before the internet the only allowed causes of slamfires were "your high primer and your worn out gun",* but shooters were having slamfires with factory ammunition in new guns, so enough started realizing that there was something more was behind their malfunction. It turns out overly sensitive primers are the main cause of slamfires, not shooter negligence. Besides CCI, Federal was the other company to sell "mil spec" small rifle primers, but I have never one a box anywhere, so I don't know what happened to them. But this is the ad roll out and some commentary on Federal mil spec primers:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/09/new-federal-gold-medal-match-primers-for-ars/

September 11th, 2011
New Federal Gold Medal Match Primers for ARs

Federal Ammunition has released a new type of small rifle match primer optimized for AR15s and similar semi-automatic rifles. The new Gold Medal® AR Match Primers, designated GM205MAR, have harder primer cups than the popular Federal 205M match primers. The harder cup is designed to perform better in semi-automatic actions that use free-floating firing pins. A Federal spokesman said that Federal’s “normal” 205M primers were not ideal for use in firearms, such as ARs, with free floating firing pins. Hence Federal designed the new GM205MAR primers. These are available now from major vendors such as Midsouth Shooters Supply, which offers the new GM205MAR primers for $35.22 per thousand.



Here's the skinny on the Federal GM205MAR primer.

http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?32572-Here-s-the-skinny-on-the-Federal-GM205MAR-primer

My friend at RCBS contacted the expert at Federal, and this is what he was told:
Mix is the same as in the standard small rifle primer. The primer cup is thicker, as is the anvil. The thicker cup and anvil “should” desensitize the primer a bit, and “lessen” the chance of a slam-fire. Federal primers are in general, more sensitive than CCI and less tolerant of firing pin blows during loading into the chambers of the M1 Garand, M1-A, and AR platforms.
I hope this helps shed some light.

* This was a lie by the US Army and its supporters in the National Rifle Association. Post WW2 the only semi auto rifle in Civilian hands in any sort of quantity was the M1 Rifle, and that basically in the hands of Highpower Competitors. In the early 60's you could get a Garand from the US Army if you physically went to the National Matches and bought a NM Garand. Sufficient numbers got into the hands of Civilians who followed their bolt gun reloading practices of neck sizing, partial neck sizing, and the use of sensitive commercial primers. Since competitive shooters fire thousands to tens of thousands of rounds, it was only a matter of time that out of battery slamfire reports started to surface in the shooting community. The Army and it mouthpiece, the NRA , would not admit that the issue US Service rifle and its derivatives had a design fault. This mechanism not only can slamfire in battery, it can slamfire out of battery! Both created and disseminated the story that slamfires and particularly out of battery slamfires, were only caused by worn out guns and bad reloads. This shifted all problems onto shooter negligence which of course, suited the Army as it did not have to acknowledge this problem, and it suited the NRA because Garands, M14's, and M1a's, were the only service rifles allowed in NRA competition.
 
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In the early 60's you could get a Garand from the US Army if you physically went to the National Matches and bought a NM Garand.

M1 Garands were available to the general public in the early 1960's through regular venues. I bought my first M1 Garand from Golden State Arms in Pasadena, CA, in early 1963, from a rack of Garands they had on their showroom floor. The price was $89.95. Mine had been to Great Britain, as evidenced by the British proof marks and had never been through a rebuild.

Being young and foolish, I sold that Garand in 1969 for the princely sum of $115.00 to fund the purchase of one of Browning's then new BAR sporting rifles. I still have the BAR, and wish I still had that particular Garand. The best M1 I have now is an International Harvester with star gauged barrel, that will outshoot all my other Garands.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
So two companies are both owned by a third, this does not mean that their products are the same.

That also does not prove that their products are not the same either ...

In this day and age powder companies are selling one anothers powders under different name .... they are using bullets made by "other" different "named" companies .... but happen to be the same bullets ....

Is it a surprise that they are mixing and mingling .... do a little digging a you'd be amazed ...
 
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