Felony stop leaves family traumatized

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Sniper9,

Welcome aboard, relax and stay awhile. Don't know if this board is going to be as good but it comes from the great roots of the TFL. Lots of us don't know what goes on in the LE world, but most of us have a great respect for you and yours doing your best. We will try to see things from your side dealing with the "bad element" all the time. But try to understand that most of us have only delt with LE for minor stuff. (2 speeding tickets in my 34 years) So its hard to understand felony stops, no knock raids etc esp when it seems to happen because of poor info, commo, etc. Stay Safe
 
Sniper9, there are many LEO's on this board, local, State and Federal (including myself). As I commented in my post on page 3 of this thread, I simply can't understand how a felony stop was even considered when no felony whatsoever had been reported! I think that this is the main point at issue here, and I'm sure you, as a fellow LEO, can understand how very, very difficult it would be for you (and how angry you would be!) if you were placed in a similar situation. Sure, there are those of our members who don't understand the pressures LEO's face: but there are many of us who understand all too well... Don't judge The High Road by one thread, or even one forum. Take a look around, and judge the place as a whole. Besides, you've now got the opportunity to make a serious contribution to helping us all understand better, from your own perspective! That's what The High Road is all about...
 
Who was it that said the Smoaks should be offered a new puppy and an apology?

If some jackbooted cop shot my pet dog and then said "Oh, well, sorry, here's some money for a new dog," I would have a hard time restraining myself from kicking his behind up around his ears!

One more thing. Let's suppose the dog had not been shot. The very fact that the Smoaks were stopped and treated as they were should be grounds for a lawsuit. I'm offended that any LEO would defend the actions of the dopeheads that were in on that stop. I hope we get more feedback about how this turns out, and I hope some of those LEO's have to find new work as sanitation engineers.
 
Well, Sniper9, welcome to the site. I for one am glad we have a real honest to goodness "been there, done that" law enforcement officer here to tell the rest of us dumb asses what we don't and never could understand about the day to day trials and tribulations of a street cop.

Of course I only babysit 308 felons five days a week so I realize I don't have a clue about the criminal mindset. I will happily look forward to your invaluable input.
 
Sniper9, there are many LEO's on this board, local, State and Federal (including myself). As I commented in my post on page 3 of this thread, I simply can't understand how a felony stop was even considered when no felony whatsoever had been reported!
Father, don't you know that all of your constitutional rights, hopes, dreams, etc. go right out the window (or off the roof) when one makes a heinous mistake like leaving one's wallet on the roof after making a gasoline purchase?;)

Why a negligent act like that ought to earn all of the family an eternal dirtnap courtesy of Der Gruppenfuhrer & Co. Heil!

They probably thought the dog was a member of Al-Qaeda.:rolleyes:
YOU DON'T KNOW ALL THE FACTS,
Don't need to. Given the "FACTS" that Chief Wiggum, er Fife, uh I mean Terry was willing to admit to, I have all of the information that I need.

Where do you patrol Sniper9? I wan't to avoid getting shot.
 
Sniper9:

It's great to have you here. Yours is a viewpoint we could all benefit from. My point, and the point of many posters here, is a simple one:

The police had nothing to lose by closing the car doors as requested and everything to gain.

Why did they not do so, when told repeatedly that there were dogs in the car? The vehicle was stopped and the occupants secured. The car wasn't going anywhere. There were multiple police on the scene.

Surely someone could have closed the darn door.

Sure, if afterwards it is shown that an arrest is justified, call in animal control to secure the dogs - then search the car. That's perfectly fine, and I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

Most of the pain could have been averted had the police simply closed the car door.
 
Hi everyone, These sort of incidents always get me worked up. I know that cops have a tough dangerous job and they have a roght to live through a vehicle stop. BUT SO DO I! I have as much right to live through an encounter with the the police as he/she does to live through an encounter with me.
pete
 
This is the core question here:

HOW COULD THE FAMILY HAVE PREVENTED THIS without DISOBEYING THE OFFICERS' INSTRUCTIONS AND RISKING PHYSICAL INJURY OR DEATH FROM THE OFFICERS???

I've asked it on several forums but none of the police officers have answered. Would someone here do so? Thanks.
 
jmbg,

All it takes is a 911 phone call.

"Oh my gawd, officer; I just saw jmbg29 doing this or that (name your poison; drugs, guns, bombs, underage boy/girl in car, etc.) and you'd better stop him right now! PLEASE HURRY"

Dispatch takes the call and bingo, you're booty is cooked. At the least you'll need a lawyer to untangle your now very Kafka'esque existance.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us"; pogo

Sad but twue. America today. Land of the...

Adios
 
"Ever had cops all around you pointing their arms at you, READY and WAITING for some serious caca to occur? (I personally haven't thank you very much)"
_______

Yes. Broad daylight. Two unshaven clowns in a muddy Ford with no hubcaps followed me for about a half a mile from a little store to my parents' house. I stopped in front of the house when they hit the siren. They jumped out. One pointed his gun at me and my passenger through the rear window and the other through the driver's window.

They were doing an underage alcohol stakeout wanted to see the bottle of wine in the brown bag...it was a rolled up Playboy! They wanted to see the receipt. The store never gave them to anyone. They claimed they'd used the siren before and I was evading them - yeah, at 25 mph through a residential neighborhood to my parents' house on a deadend court.

You should have been there to see a dozen little kids surround them shouting "John, what's going on?"

You should have been there when my father, a former state trooper, got their supervisor on the line. He gave him a 15-minute tongue-lashing and never wished him a Merry Christmas either.
_____________

Back on topic.

I agree that peace officers deserve to go home at night.

I also believe that they work for us - all of us - and are required to use their brains before jumping to conclusions that can have dire consequences.

John


edited to add: Happened in Rockville, MD in 1971.
 
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Up until the Officer shot the dog I think proper procedures were followed reference the Felony stop. By no accounts from anyone present were the Troopers anything other than professional in their handling of the family during the stop. I would have used almost identical procedures up to the time the last family member was removed

Proper procedure?????? WHAT THE F***K what state do you work in tell me so I can stay clear and never drive through it.
The first thing a POLICE officere usually does is RUN THE LICENSE PLATE, You do have a radio in your car right?? they were following the car for a considerable distance, wouldnt a normal police officer run the plate for outstanding warrants, or to see if it was reported stollen?????

If they ran the license plate and compared it to the name and address on the license in the found wallet this whole incident would have never happened.

The shoot the doggie and ask questions later thing has gotten out of hand.

A few months ago in DE a K-9 officer shot a small mongrel (35lbs, part boxer) because the dog, who was in his own yard when the Gestapo/ err police came by with their doggy, had the nerve to Smell the K-9 officers TUSH, The officer said:

" he was going for the hindquarters of my Dog (a 95lb Shepherd)"

Yup like any dog I have ever seen he was trying to smell his butt, the officer responded with a .40cal, this was while the owner was standing there, along with his two children, right in their own backyard.

:what: :cuss:
 
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Anybody here want to go through this kind of experience because of leaving a wallet on the hood of your car? Not me.

I'm getting really tired of hearing/reading the litany of people getting screwed by the "police". Hang the whole f*****g lot of these guys.
 
sheer unmigagated crap!

the officer in charge should be fired without his pension! as for the grinner who shot the dog.....well if it was my dog.........he would find himself with a 30 caliber earplug at a future date.
I don't know why some LEO's of late have declared war on the family pet but I for one am sick and tired of it. shoot my dog for no reason but that he exists and you too will soon know the defination of the 3 S's.
JMHO
 
Yup like any dog I have ever seen he was trying to smell his butt, the officer responded with a .40cal, this was while the owner was standing there, along with his two children, right in their own backyard.

And if anyone else did that, you'd put two in their chest out of fear that they'd gone mad, however, since it's the po-po you just stand there and take it because any deadly-force action for any reason against a police officer will get you in one of very few scenarios.

1. Shot by his partner(s) a total of 48 times, or more depending on whether or not they all have 50 or more rounds on them at the time.

2. The victim of police fabrication to prove you murdered the cop.

3. Out $1,000,000.00 in legal fees defending your life against fraudulent charges of a system gone mad.


Do I appreciate the police and what they do? Yes, absolutely. I even sent a check to the Texas State Troopers Association this morning to show that appreciation. I have a real problem with this kind of thing though, a real problem with the CYA tactics being used by police all over the country to pass it off as though they are never wrong in anything they do. PROCEDURE seems to be the word of the day and SENTIENT THOUGHT seems to be left on the bedstand once the gun and badge are pinned on for the days shift.

Personally, no bones about it, I'd just assume lose the cops and worry about the "criminal element by myself without them. I do that anyway, I carry a gun, and I keep one in my home just in case I or my family ever need to be protected from a criminal. I doubt I'll ever need to call the cops to come save me from a problem other than to serve as cleanup crew, but I've been a victim of overzealous policing more than once in my short life, and I have no doubt I will be again.

This entire situation was created by hellbent emotional response and wasn't based at all on any facts. All we have is a wallet found on the side of the road, that's all, and somehow that led to a dead family pet. Levying any responsibility on the family for that is childish. We have a family who was minding their own business, heading home from a vacation, and their lives were violently intruded upon by the THP and the local city police.

The LEO presence here wants me to believe this was somehow the fault of the Smoak family or of the "good samaritan" that called this in. I'm sorry, that just doesn't work, and I have done a ride-out before. First step in every stop? Plate gets run...seems like the entire situation could have been avoided had that simple step been taken. Instead, we have a dead family pet, and everyone involved is innocent.

Everything was done according to "procedure."

The police were "trained" to do it that way.

Out of a handful of cops, could someone have used their brain for 2 seconds and simply run the plate on the car to see if it matched the ID on the "stolen" wallet? Maybe, but that probably wouldn't be "procedure", and it probably wouldn't be as exciting as running a few people out of a gun at car point, and "procedure" must be followed above and beyond common sense.

I see the same thing taking place right now, today in Arlington, TX where I live, and in Ft. Worth, TX just up the road a piece.

A guy jumped off a bridge on 360 in Arlington. Cops said they had no clue why, wrote up a report and that was that. When asked if they tazed the suspect, they refused to comment on "ongoing investigations" and off the record said they didn't taze the guy. There was absolutely no mention of tazing the subject mere seconds before he went over the edge of the highway overpass. Unfortunately for the Arlington PD, a reporter snapped an excellent photo of an officer with a Tazer pointed at the suspect, the coil attached to both the device and attached to the jumpers side. The APD of course has no comment and will "look into it."

In Fort Worth a few nights ago, an undercover cop busted into a convenience store and ended up shot by the store owner. In the initial report, FWPD said that the officer WAS wearing a vest, DID identify herself as a police officer, WAS wearing proper ID, WAS NOT wearing a mask, and said she WAS entering the store to arrest a suspect that she sold $20 worth of crack to INSIDE the store.

Today, after serious questions into the outright lies told by the FWPD, they issued a revised report that stated the officer WAS NOT wearing a vest, that she DID NOT identify herself as a police officer, that she WAS NOT wearing proper ID, that she WAS wearing a mask, and that she WAS entering the store GUN DRAWN to arrest the suspect inside, but that the deal had actually taken place OUTSIDE the store. A total change of EVERY fact originally reported once they were called on their total fabrication of the events.

They also wanted to refer the case to the grand jury for charges against the shooter, but after being made out as liars and fools, they "might" reconsider that action.

That's in my neck of the woods, and that's the kind of departments I have to think about. Always looking out for themselves, and totally willing to protect their own by lying and fabricating the facts to absolve police of any possible wrongdoing. When the "Thin Blue Line" is no longer a threat to myself and my loved ones, perhaps I'll feel more respect for cops themselves. I respect what you guys do, and I respect the authority you represent, but I only respect the people behind the badges on a case by case basis.

I look at police with total suspicion and distrust until they prove worthy of better, just like they look at me.

-SS
 
I should hope that the family places a complaint before the FBI and Justice Department. This appears to be malfeasance. Of course, the hallmark of the FBI lately seems to be malfeasance but one can hold out hope.
 
A few simple points.
1) People keep mentioning that the plate should have been run. I'm sure it was. What does that matter? Did they have the actual wallet with ID in it? There was a report of money blowing around, and that it came from the guys lost wallet. Even if they had the wallet, it sounds like this was reported as a possible car jacking/abduction with both bad guys and victim in the same car. 2) car didn't come back stolen. Ever wonder how a car comes up with a stolen hit? It's not magic, it's paper work. A person (the registered owner) has to report in person to an officer the vehicle is stolen and sign in person so it can be entered in the computer system as stolen. If a car is recently stolen, as in it just happened a short time ago, it won't be in the system and won't come up with a hit.
3)we don't know who the car was registered to, the driver, a rental, a friend, a business, etc.
4)looks like a lot of people are assuming the police should have been able to see that there were dogs in the vehicle right away. Why? It sounds like the stop occured at night, perhaps they ever saw the dog until it exited the vehicle. We don't know, not enough information in the news article. There never is. If people are really curious to know more about what when on during an incident (other than being there) they should request a copy of the police reports. They usually aren't available until after a case is closed, but then anyone can ask for a copy in person at the appropriate agency and be given a copy. Makes for some interesting reading sometimes, especially if they include written statements from the people involved in the call, or witnesses.
 
Even if they had the wallet, it sounds like this was reported as a possible car jacking/abduction with both bad guys and victim in the same car.

Please help me understand police tactics:

SO the SOP here when worried about hostages, and armed perps in the same car, is to yell over a bull horn get out one at a time while the cops are at a safe distance from the car???? and then take the time to handcuff each of the folks who got out, perp or victim??????

If they had been carjackers the armed perps could have opened fire from the back seat at the police, and the police would have returned fire, all while innocents were in the line of fire, and still in the car?????

My dogs, everyone I have ever owned, bark when a stranger approaches me my family or my car, so It would have been tough for the police to miss the dogs, I even see trained police dogs barking furiously when the car they are in is approached by a stranger.

This entire situation was created by hellbent emotional response and wasn't based at all on any facts. All we have is a wallet found on the side of the road, that's all, and somehow that led to a dead family pet
Well said,

Its a miracle that the family was not shot by the over reacting police, when the driver reached for his wallet the police could have interrpreted it as a move for a weapon and opened up on everyone in the car.

These folks are lucky to be alive.


To refresh our memories as to how the police approached the dangerous car:

Quote:

"I immediately pulled to the side, and expecting him to come to the window, I started reaching for my wallet to get my license and it was not there," Smoak said.

About that time, he heard the officer broadcast orders over a bullhorn, telling him to toss the keys out the car window and get out with his hands up and walk backwards to the rear of the car.

Still not knowing what he was being stopped for, Smoak obeyed, and when he reached the back of the car, with a gun pointed at Smoak, the trooper ordered him to get on his knees, face the back of the car and put his head down.
End Quote.
 
Like you just showed by your review the cops didn't approach the vehicle, they spoke over a bullhorn from cover, thus the dogs didn't give themselves away by barking. All people from a high risk stop are cuffed, ALL, same as from a bank hostage situation as bad guys try to hide among the good. After everyone is cuffed then you can find out who is who. (no, this is not as easy as it sounds.)
 
Sniper9:

I understand what cops face. This situation has all the makings of a bad event. Police in the mentality of about to deal with a dangerous felon, a family with know clue what is about to (traumatically) happend to them, aggressive dogs., night time.

Its very hard to judge the actions of soemone in such an encounter when we have minutes hours days etc to ponder and he/she has less than a second. (My CCWW instructor emphasised this to us, that there will be lawyers taking years going over your actions that you had just a split second to decide or react to).

This is almost one of those training videos of shoot/don't shoot.

So, in your professional view, what could have been done procedure-wise and training-wise to prevent this?

I doubt if there are many cops out there who want to hurt innocent people or their property, lets take the high road and help them out. remeber, some day, they may just help you.
 
perhaps they ever saw the dog until it exited the vehicle
If that was the case, then whomever "cleared" the vehicle should be fired immediately.

Ninja felony stop, and they wouldn't be able to see a dog? This just keeps getting more and more ridiculous.:rolleyes: :fire: :banghead:
 
To continue the madness:D

If your car is jacked, and you're left in the vehicle as a hostage family, and the cops run your tag and see that the car belongs to XYZ family... AND if they know that XYZ's wallet has been found fluttering in the breeze on the roadside somewhere... AND they finally find a SAFE place to stop this potential FELONY!!!! (for all they know) and do light you up and pull you out of the car, how do they know who's who until THEY GET TOTAL CONTROL OF THE SITUATION?

For all the cops know, the guy driving the car may be a bad guy.

How do they know it's REALLY Mr. XYZ? He has no ID, remember?

Ever think a bad guy has lied to a cop? Nah.

Might a real bad guy have an accomplice in the back seat? Nah.

Has a cop EVER had a dog sicced on him/her by a bad guy? Nah.

Jeezuz. If you think you can do a better job, go get the job.

It's sad, it's tragic. Its a dog. Fouled up felony stops aren't that common, but I gather they do happen.

Walk a mile in the man's mocassins, then tell us how it feels.

Someone will pay, probably the THP and the locals, once the legal beagles have their day in court. Someone's career may be ruined and maybe he is truly a damned good police officer. At least he's out there taking the risk.

Maybe he shoulda just bent down and said good little doggy.

Maybe it was a carjacking and a citizen needed REAL Police assistance.

Maybe someone shoulda closed a door.

I wasn't there.

Were you?

Adios
 
There was an account of this incident at www.wnd.com yesterday or the day before, which I read. It appears that the police involved showed absolutely the worst kind of "judgement".
 
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