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First Amendment vs Second Amendment

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I've seen in the media several times recently where a reporter or politician was discussing the 2A and said something to the effect that we could have all the guns we wanted. But, they must be muzzleloaders such as those used at the time that the Constitution was written. There was no way that the framers of the Constitution could have imagined the types of weapons that we have today, and therefore the 2A does not apply to modern weapons. Or something to that effect anyway. No, I do not have links or specific examples.

Anyway, it seems to me that if we follow this logic then the 1A would also be greatly restricted. Free speach should only be allowed during actual conversation, newspapers, and maybe magazines. I mean, there was no TVs, radios, telephones, movies, internet, etc. when the Constitution was written and there is no way that the framers could have forseen these devices. So the should be resticted as well, right?

What do you think?
 
Well, I agree in the comparison. I do, also believe that civilians should be armed with the same small arms that are issued to our modern Army & Marine forces; as Im sure you are too. I get where you are coming from, tho.
 
I do, also believe that civilians should be armed with the same small arms that are issued to our modern Army & Marine forces; as Im sure you are too.

Absolutely! I definitely don' agree with their statement, or thought process. It just irks me that they either want their cake and eat it too, or they haven't completely thought the consequences of their reasoning. I do, however, figure that it is the former of the two.
 
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This has been a longstanding pro-2A argument.
Ultimately, the anti-gunner leadership basically boils down to control and authoritarianism. The leading Democrats wouldn't bother me so much if they were more liberal and less authoritarian. Though the Republicans have also headed in that direction as well.
 
I would send the idiot a comment that the first admandment was written with feather pens on sheep hide and not a word processor or computer so his commnet is out of date and does not count as the bill of rights was originaly inked.
 
I would prefer to leave it the way it is. I don't want to restrict either the first or second amendments. I believe that as written, the seond amendment was geared toward arms that were commonly used by the militias or military and does not have any "what if's" in it. Hence, any firearm should be available to the citizentry. (The "regulated" part is the problem.) At that time, the more accurate types of rifles were more commonly used by hunters or target shooters. Same applies generally today.
 
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I think they know what was modern in the 1770's is different from what is modern in 2008, they know they have a group they can BS. :barf:
 
I was, but I don't favor additional restrictions of any kind and I feel ex-cons that have served their time should be given full citizenship rights and privleges. I'm still not on board with the NICs check completely, but I can live with it. I don't want you or others to think I favor further "regulation" just because I wrote it. As you know, many do. It is also stretching the topic a bit to get into a long 2A discussion that has gone on here many times.
 
Yes, I've heard the argument before, "The founders of our nation could not have imagined the terrible weapons we have today and so the Second Amendment only refers to arms common to the day it was written."

Fine, if that is true then why am I prohibited from carrying a musket with a bayonet down the streets of Des Moines, Cedar Rapids, and Dubuque?

Not only are bayonets illegal just having a mount point on a firearm that might in some manner be suitable for a bayonet makes that firearm a controlled weapon.

The antis want to ban rifles because they are too powerful. They also want to ban handguns because they are too small. Why can't they show me one that's "just right"? I guess it's because they have yet to realize that these "terrible implements of war" are also very useful implements of defense against tyranny and crime.

The insanity of it all makes me mad!
 
I don't recall seeing it written exactly like this but I cannot claim I am the first.

A well educated citizenry, being necessary to the well being of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
 
The First Amendment is not absolute, it is nuanced. It says, "Congress shall make no law ...abridging the freedom of speech...." Note that it does not say, "...abridging speech." This means Congress can not make any laws that would alter the meaning of or limit what you say. It can, however, proscribe punishment for the use foul language or for slander and libel. The First Amendment protects freedom of speech, but does not recognize a right to free speech. The First also prohibits government to pass law establishing a national religion or prohibiting the free exercise of religion, and it protects the right to peaceably assemble(not assemble, but peaceably assemble), and to petition the government for redress of grievances.


The phrase, "...,shall not be infringed" in the Second Amendment is not equal to, "Congress shall make no law...abridgeing..." in the First Amendment. The difference is in the different meanings of the words "Infringe" and "Abridge", and the context in which they are used. The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is unconditional. "Shall not be infringed" is quite clear. Assembly is conditional; one must petition the government for redress of grievances, not storm the Capitol; and say what you will, but be prepared to face any consequences of your libelous, slanderous, and foul-mouthed utterances.

Our Right to Keep and Bear Arms is absolute. It is protected in that fashion in the Constitution. Don't fall prey to the argument that the First and Second Amendments are alike... They are not. One speaks of nuanced freedom dealing with the use of language, the other speaks of an absolute right dealing with the simple, benign, and innocuous keeping and bearing of arms. Neither one has bearing on the other for force and effect, though they can protect one another. Don't let either one down.

Eric C. Sanders wrote,
" When you accept prior restraint, you assume that limits will exist - but who sets those limits? And why? Because they prevent harm - or because it makes controlling a population easier?"​

In regard to the portion of Eric's quote I set in bold; while some people advocate abdicating our rights for some imagined greater good, it creates an avenue for wanna-be tyrants to slip in under the cover of these naive ambitions. I can imagine a George Soros or a Hitler figure licking his chops while our rights are being diminished by these people. It doesn't matter if it is being done specifically to control a population or not - it sets the wheels in motion for that to happen. What do they call that? Oh, yes, "Unintended Consequences."

Woody

You all need to remember where the real middle is. It is the Constitution. The Constitution is the biggest compromise - the best compromise - ever written. It is where distribution of power and security of the common good meets with the protection of rights, freedom, and personal sovereignty. B.E.Wood
 
It's just an excuse to justify banning guns totally. Would you be allowed to carry a musket into an airport or a school? Of course not. Would you send the army into Iraq with muskets? Of course not! They aren't going to let you keep muskets anymore than anything more modern. That's like the "Nuke Argument". It goes: "Does the 2nd Amendment guarantee you a right to keep and bear Nuclear Weapons?" Since the idea is considered ridiculous, the argument is that there are limits on the 2nd Amendment, and then it is "assumed' , that since it is okay for the US government to ban private ownership of nuclear weapons, it is also okay for the federal governement to ban any and all firearms that they wish. I am surprised at how many gunowners are thrown by that one.
 
1a will fall after 2a does.

I agree. The first and second amendments complement each other. If one falls the other will follow. I'll make a variation on something said by a great man, carrying a big stick allows one to speak softly.
 
Would you be allowed to carry a musket into an airport or a school? Of course not.

Why not? I remember talking to a co-worker that talked about having his shotgun in carry on luggage way back when. No one was hurt. The skyjackings became popular after a policy of compliance. That changed a few years ago. The skyjacking ended, IMHO, not because the guns were removed from the planes but because guns were put on the plane... by federal marshals. That changed when no one wanted to pay for a marshal on every flight, and we paid for it a thousand fold.

I doubt skyjackings will successful for some time now. The idea that compliance will lead to a safe landing is now lost, at least until people's memory fades.

The same with school shootings. The people that want to pile up a body count go for places they know they are likely to meet little resistance, places like schools, shopping centers, and churches. That will only change by allowing law abiding citizens to defend themselves against those that ignore the "gun free zone" signs.

I would love to see where people can go to school or get on a plane with muskets and bayonets. (Well maybe keep the musket off the plane, those overhead bins aren't very large.) I think people would be much safer that way.
 
The sad thing is that there is any [insert number] Amendment vs [insert number] Amendment going on at all. Take them as a whole or leave them as a whole, you cannot pick and choose the ones that are the most convenient to you and try and undermine the rest. One day people will get tired of picking which of their rights they want to save when they step into the booth.

People attacking the meaning of The 2nd Amendment are just having to resort to lice combing to try and justify their unconstitutional craving to dis-arm law abiding citizens.

We had just overthrown a tyrannical government and were framing an alien type of government that hadn't been proven to be viable and could have easily turned into a dictatorship if they didn't take the proper steps to prevent it. Giving people the right to criticize their governing officials and freedom to read and say what was really going on in the world helped keep the people empowered. Giving people the right to defend themselves gave them the right to put the government in it's place if the time ever came that they tried to infringe upon the given rights of the people. It is pretty clear that the intent of The 2nd Amendment was to keep citizens sufficiently armed that if the time ever came, they would have the means to over throw them.

I think that if they used any kind of logic at all when dealing with the amendments, they wouldn't have a problem with them or what their purpose is.
 
People attacking the meaning of The 2nd Amendment are just having to resort to lice combing to try and justify their unconstitutional craving to dis-arm law abiding citizens.
That sure is true, its a rare number of anti-gun people who are willing to say they believe the 2nd amendment does secure the individual right to keep and bear arms and that they think its wrong and should be changed. While I disagree with them I have a lot more respect for them for being honest.
 
"Does the 2nd Amendment guarantee you a right to keep and bear Nuclear Weapons?"

This is one of those questions that Congress is forbidden to abridge by the First Amendment, that creates so much banter - that Congress is forbidden to abridge by the First Amendment - yet the answer is "No" to the underlying question. The correct answer contains a clarification that some in Congress don't want you to know about. The Second Amendment doesn't guarantee you anything. The Second Amendment forbids government to infringe upon your Right to Keep and bear Arms, and that is what some in Congress don't want you to know. They're happy to see all the speech being wasted on an issue that is irrelevant. Consider the following:

If the First Amendment protected or guaranteed you a right to free speech, you could never be held accountable for slander, libel, or perjury. If the Second Amendment guaranteed you a right to nuclear weapons, government would have to supply you with them. We all know that's not the case.

Know what the First and Second Amendments do and you'll be able to answer any question about either amendment. They limit government.

Woody

"The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government. But the Constitution which at any time exists, 'till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole of the People, is sacredly obligatory upon all."

George Washington, Farewell Address, September 19, 1796.
 
Would you be allowed to carry a musket into an airport or a school? Of course not.

Carrying onto airplanes was legal until the 60's.......You can STILL carry into schools in some states.
 
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