Fixing "breaking wrist up"?

[allank]

So I was at the range recently, and after practicing several hours with a 9mm compact pistol was able to successfully and repeatedly shoot 2" groups at 15 yards. However the center of the groups was consistently about 2" high dead center above the bulls eye. I used the same ammo in a friends 1911 style 9mm and also shot 2" groups but about 3" high of dead center.

According to the pistol diagnostic charts this means I am "breaking wrist up", but neither my friend nor I could figure out how to fix this. For both pistols I used the appropriate (but different) sight picture for that gun, so I'm pretty sure the issue is in my handling/firing and not sight picture.

Can anyone give me some pointers on how to fix this, apart from aiming lower? I was really pleased with the groups, now if I could only get them 2" lower!

 

[9mmepiphany]

For both pistols I used the appropriate (but different) sight picture for that gun, so I'm pretty sure the issue is in my handling/firing and not sight picture.

Not that I doubt what your are saying, but would you mind clarifying what an appropriate (but different) sight picture would be...just so we can eliminate that variable.

Also which gun you're shooting...to limit recommendations not applicable to your trigger type...and the kind (shape) of target you are shooting. Also the stance and grip you use would make suggestions more on point

 

[David E]

Describe gun, caliber, stance and sight picture (along with differences between that gun and the other)

 

[BCRider]

If your groups are tight then it may well be that you're not shooting the ammo that the gun is sighted in for. For example if the gun was sighted in for light 115gn ammo and you're shooting 147's then this will easily cause that much rise in the groupings due to the bullet being enough slower to exit the barrel later in the lift due to the recoil. If you're not using 115's then try some and see if the groups lower enough.

In any event the flinch down or "breaking wrist up" is all related to your hands not being a stable platform when shooting. Have a buddy stick a snap cap in the magazines randomly for you. Then have him watch to see if your gun moves when you trigger on the snap cap. It may be that you're not actually doing anything with your wrist but if you are tightening fingers other than the trigger finger you may be lifting the gun. If so you're doing it darned consistently. So really I suspect that it's mostly or all the ammo.

 

[oldfool]

"after practicing several hours with a 9mm compact pistol"

can't rule out the ammo in the equation, but more suspicious that several hours of focusing on a new/unfamiliar compact may have led to "learning" to adjust something to not quite right (different) than your best/proper hold. (assuming you only ran a few rounds thru a larger/heavier 1911 w/ quite different trigger after) Could easy happen with a compact shortie; "unlearning" can be tough.

The good news is that all three of above shooters really are, no kidding, exceptional at analyzing hold issues, so if you give them requested info, they will get you back on track, especially if you can post pictures.

and 2" groups within 2" of X is a better place to start from than most of us !

 

[allank]

Thanks guys. More info as requested:

My pistol is a S&W M&P 9mm compact (3.5" barrel) with the lo-mount white dot sights. This is a dual stack 12-round magazine. I've had this for nearly two years doing club practice USPSA, but this was the first time I was really working on slow fire very tight groups at 15 yards. Most practice has been about 21ft to 30ft.

My friends was a 1911-style 9mm metal gun, single stack magazine, so the grip was not as wide. Sorry, don't remember the make.

Sight picture. For the M&P9c my understanding is that you cover the bulls eye with the front sight dot, and then center the front dot between the rear dots, both horizontally and vertically. According to my friend his 1911 9mm has the classic post sights where you center the front post between the rear blades, align the tops, and align the front sight top just under the bulls eye. He can shot bulls eyes with that sight picture and his ammo (which did make me wonder about the ammo and/or my grip/stance).

Ammo: American Eagle AE9AP, 124gr, FMJ, muzzle velocity 1120 fps, muzzle energy 345 fl-lbs, and is meant to be bulls eye at 25 yards (numbers from ammo box, website specs slightly higher: http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=93)

Stance: Two-handed (left hand strong) isosceles, with thumbs locked i.e. not forward. Pistol has a laser grip so thumbs forward on the right hand side blocks the laser. This was my first time shooting like this (laser grip was Xmas present), hence the practice. I was NOT using the laser, just the post sights.

Targets: Were 6x SR-21C bullseye centers on one 2'x3', shooting at 15 yards: http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=SR-216T

Other thoughts: Re-reading the isosceles stance I wonder if I am hunching my shoulders and/or bringing my head down instead of the gun up. What difference would that make?

I'll try the snap cap suggestion when I get to the range next time.

 

[BCRider]

I think we've found your trouble. If you're covering the bull with the "finder" dot then you're aiming wrong. Just line up the tops of the notch and blade and hold that top line splitting the bull like you're supposed to do with any non dot style sight. The white dots or glowing tritium stuff is only there to aid in finding your sights in lower light situations. For bullseye or other match shooting you still want to treat them as if they are regular black sights just like guns that have regular black sights.

 

[9mmepiphany]

That was my first thought too. If your are driving the dots, you are going to be shooting high. Try shooting by aligning to tops of the front and rear sights and bisecting the center of the target

It has been my experience that locking your thumbs will push your shots sideways and cause your gun to rise toward your support hand in recoil.

I saw a rather useful target a little while back. It had three 1" squares across a sheet of paper and there were four or five rows, of these three squares, going down the paper. The object was to fire only one shot at each square to see where you were striking as opposed to where you were aiming. At a distance of 5-7 yards (15-21'), you should be able to hit each square and see how far off you are pulling your shot

 

[allank]

So the sight picture for the M&P9c would explain the 2" high, but why would the 1911 also be high by about the same amount since I used the correct sight picture (bisect bulls eye with post tops)? Would that be because of the locking thumbs? I'll try something different next time.

I like the square target idea. Off to print some off just now for the next range visit.