FMJ for Self Defense?

[JTQ]

Glock19Fan wrote,
while the .45ACP remained point forward. The shape and center of gravity of the .45 bullet is just too far to the front to allow yaw or tumbling, unless of course it glances off something.

While I have not personally done any testing of .45ACP ammo, nearly every test I've seen of .45ACP ball indicates it does yaw, quite a bit.

This article, while referencing rifle ammo, explains the connection between bullet nose shape and the tendency for yaw.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

 

[BSA1]

Is it summer or time to beat the dead horse again?

Personally I don't think it matters that much which you choose as they're both pretty equal anecdotal stories aside.

The NYC PD used 9mm FMJ's for many years and there are plenty of real world shootings to look at the data. If you look at the MS data shown at http://handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp you will see there's minimal difference between performance in the .45 acp 230gr FMJ and the 9mm 115gr FMJ and if you want to nit pick about a few % then the 9mm wins. Plenty of shooting to compare data with so the stat's should have high correlation to actual.

This date is also supported by research by Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow in their book "Street Stoppers". According to their research the 9mm Winchester 115gr. FMJ gave one shot stops 67% of the time and the vaulted R-P and Federal 45 acp 230 gr. FMJ gave one shot stops 69% of the time.

 

[Drail]

NYC police and Marshall and Sanow? You may as well obtain your "facts" from Wikipedia.

 

[mljdeckard]

I would choose the .45, but the real world difference is probably negligible.

Keep in mind, the reason we work so hard to improve the performance of pistol bullets is that they all suck. Premium JHP bullets suck a little bit less than FMJs. I think that the .45 has a slight advantage, and when you are fighting for your life, you want all the advantage you can get, but 9, .45, JHP, FMJ, it's the same plan, the same way. Get as many COM hits as you can. Hopefully the threat will stop with a few good hits. If they don't, keep shooting.

 

[wildehond]

Between the 9mmx19 and the 45ACP I would pick the 45ACP in FMJ.

 

[mdauben]

If limited to FMJ ammo, I would definetly go with the .45. Without modern expanding ammunition neither would be considered a stand out "stopper" but AFAIK the available evidence indicates the .45 is significantly supperior (or should I say, less inferior?) than the 9mm.

That said, I would never limit myself to FMJ in a SD senario. Modern JHP is just too much better.

 

[M7]

If limited to FMJ ammo, I would definetly go with the .45. Without modern expanding ammunition neither would be considered a stand out "stopper" but AFAIK the available evidence indicates the .45 is significantly supperior (or should I say, less inferior?) than the 9mm.

That said, I would never limit myself to FMJ in a SD senario. Modern JHP is just too much better.

This.

 

[CraigC]

Between the two, definitely the .45ACP. The rhetoric about them being equal sounds like a lot of wishful thinking on the part of 9mm fans. The Marine Corps didn't just order $22million worth of 1911's because they look cool. Change the discussion to modern JHP's and you have a valid argument.

That said, FMJ is a terrible, terrible, terrible choice for self defense. Did I say terrible??? It slips right through causing very little tissue disruption. Nobody who has ever used hardball on flesh would use it for self defense unless there was absolutely no other choice.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Does anyone else notice that it looks like the 9mm made a bigger hole?

The 9mm bullet yawed, contacting and crushing more soft tissue (simulant), which is why it produced more disruption than the .45. This is a common characteristic of 9mm FMJ.

The most likely thing for it to glance off of would usually be bone. So the gelatin test tells us nothing about what happens in that case.

What bone would it "glance off of" in the torso?

 

[M7]

What bone would it "glance off of" in the torso?

A rib.

Still, I think that testing bullets in gelatin are the best we have. Kind of hard to find volunteers for stuff like that.

 

[Glock19Fan]

JTQ- I never seen any test indicate .45ACP yaws in penetration with the exception of JHPs. Did you have any links to the tests?

Also, basing the effectiveness of something becuase of a military purchase means nothing. As an active duty service member, I can assure you not everything the military purchases is performance based. Besides, almost all SOF still carry 9mms and are perfectly fine with it.

 

[The Man With No Name]

The 45 ACP vs 9 mm controversy predates the development of modern hollow point ammunition. With FMJ ammunition, history shows that the 45 is adequate while the 9 is marginal. However, unless you have a very good reason for limiting yourself to FMJ, you should carry hollow points. They are better at stopping the bad guy and less likely to overpenetrate and hurt innocent bystanders.

This sums up how I feel about it. Personally I would choose the more proven round in FMJ, the 45 ACP. For me it comes down to the fact that having lots of ammo in a mag doesn't make me feel safer. Bullets that are controllable and more likely to get the job done do. I find in the guns you are using as your example the 45 would be much more controllable. 9mm is snappy to me in recoil thus slowing me down for rapid fire work (follow up shots).

Also on the subject of bone, I've personally seen failures of +P+ 9mm to break bone. With that in mind I'd go for the heavier bullet (45).

 

[BADUNAME37]

.45 4-me

 

[Shawn Dodson]

A rib.

Not an issue. Rib bones aren't solid. It'll blast right through to enter the thoracic cavity unless it collides with the rib at a low tangential angle.

 

[M7]

Shawn,

You asked-

What bone would it "glance off of" in the torso?

I said-

A rib.

Not an issue. Rib bones aren't solid. It'll blast right through to enter the thoracic cavity unless it collides with the rib at a low tangential angle.

Wouldn't colliding with a rib at a low tangetial angle be "glancing off of" the rib?

 

[Shawn Dodson]

At a shallow angle (tangential hit) any bullet can simply glance off a rib, producing a "grazing" wound.

When hitting at an angle to producing a penetrating wound of the thorax a rib will have negligible effect whether or not the bullet is JHP or FMJ.

 

[easyg]

9mm all the way.

Glock 19 all the way.

 

[jimbo555]

45acp all the way. 1911 all the way.

 

[willypete]

This date is also supported by research by Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow

Do people still quote those guys and expect to be taken seriously? They've been debunked for quite some time. Their results are questionable and they won't release their data for peer-review.

 

[JShirley]

The Winchester Ranger 124 gr FMJ plus P is a must have if you have to have for self defense like shtF.Got to have that extract juice to reach out and punch through.

I have no idea what you're talking about. First, you end an ill-constructed sentence with an acronym that I usually translate as "the preceding was null and void, as I have no idea what I'm talking about" followed by...what? Ordinary 9x19mm FMJ over-penetrates. What you get for your dollar in this case is more recoil and more wear on your firearm.

John

 

[481]

Do people still quote those guys and expect to be taken seriously? They've been debunked for quite some time. Their results are questionable and they won't release their data for peer-review.

Evidently, they still do.

I was under the impression that the dirt had been long patted down on the grave of such farsical stuff.

Oh, well.

 

[foghornl]

If I can only use "Ball" ammo {FMJ}, I'll take the .45ACP.

 

[BSA1]

Marshall and Evans debunked?

They have published two books on their research. Can any of you point to any other researchers that have published their results in books available to the general public?

It is easy for any self-appointed "expert" giving themselves a important sounding title and publish a short essay criticizing something. Why haven't these same "experts" done the same amount of research as Marshall and Evans and published them in books available to the public?

All research methods have short comings.

Establishing a relible data base for something as complex as the human body is very difficult as no one reacts the same. For example, I know people who are not affected at all by a faceful of pepper mace. I have been in enough situations where pepper mace was used that I can fight my way through it even after getting snort full. I am not affected by the taser as much as other folks and can usually stay on my feet.

What exact issues do you object to?

Real world shootings often run counter to Internet myths and story tellings. In todays fuel charged drug environment shooting only once is risky but sometimes it is the only choice.

It is a shame that most of you have not spent time in a major hospital emergency room seeing the gun shot victims come in. Again real world vs. the Internet myths and stories.

 

[PabloJ]

I would take the Glock every time. The G21 is far superior to mass produced 1911 in every way except if used as peening hammer.

 

[allaroundhunter]

I would take the Glock every time. The G21 is far superior to mass produced 1911 in every way except if used as peening hammer.

This is not a platform v. platform thread.... it is a caliber war....