FN BHP Hi Power Questions? Year? Counterfeit?

[ahandgunner2]

OK, I've been trying to figure out the year on a recent FN 1935 I purchased but the six digit serial number doesn't place it anywhere I can find and I began reading about Iraq? sourced FEG made counterfeits and am curious...any BHP experts out there or does anyone know gp35fn, jaypee, or other "experts" over at BHP Owner's Forum?

Here's what I know...i'll try posting pics when i can.
It is FN marked - no BAC import marks Has matching SN on barrel, slide, and frame - all 147,6xx. Has Belgium proofs, ringed hammer, fixed sights.
Has SILESIA marking on front of trigger guard (West German Import?)

Can anyone tell me what year that serial number is and is it really an FN and not some FEG counterfeit?

 

[tarosean]

Pretty sure all the FEG counterfeits had "B" before the serial..
The serial definitely doesnt add up thou. However, FN marked ones were known to follow contract serialization.

Since SILESIA is more akin to modern day Talo, Lipseys, etc. It could have been a batch contract for them? Thats probably my best guess anyhow.

 

[ahandgunner2]

Thanks tarosean. I've heard people talk about 1950's for SILESIA...does anybody know IF they still exist and when they did business? In other words, is mine likely from 50's, 60's, etc.?

It's a nicely finished blue with the slide being a little brighter and the frame a little more plum looking (not much though). Appears to have very nice fit and finish. Would anything else help narrow down the era? It does not have the so called thumb print and it does have two notches in the left side of the slide. I'm not a BHP expert by any means but I've heard a lot of differences over the years. I have an FEG PJK-9HC (or whatever that model is) that I've had for years and love it but wanted to add a real BHP or FN to my collection. When I bought this one at an auction I paid FN pricing for it and it came with a OD green holster with a mag pouch, spare mag, and 1953 stamped inside of flap - I think there is more but I can't make it out right now since I just had eye surgery. It looks like a reproduction holster since it looks too nice for 1953 vintage.

 

[tarosean]

Does it have internal or external extractor?
What about other marks (Stamps)?

Ive seen at least one Sil marked one dated in 69. Thats the latest Ive seen but I cannot answer how long they were around.

 

[ahandgunner2]

It has an internal extractor and does have the mag disconnect (safety).
Markings are: Liege (pinnaple) proof, Nitro proof (PV), and U w/ a star over it on barrel. PV and U proofs also on RS trigger guard.

SN is actually 143,6xx ....sorry.

 

[tarosean]

I was hopping the controller mark could narrow your age range.
However,

*
U

Was used by

Charlier Hubert 1923 - 1953
And
Fuchs Jacques 1960 - 1968

It should be pre 62 since the change to external extractors started then. but that don't necessarily mean the old parts bin was empty at that time. they continued to raid the parts bin after the change was implemented.

 

[Onmilo]

There were only two copies of the Hi Power made with the internal extractor, The Canadian Inglis and the Indonesian Pindad. all other clone guns use the external post 1965 extractor assembly.
FN would serial number firearms to the customers request.
Buy a large enough lot and you could have any numbers you wanted for the batch

 

[ahandgunner2]

Thanks Tarosean/Onmile,
Sounds like I may have to assume it is a custom serial number range for Silesia....somewhere in the 50's or 60's...pre 53 or post 60 (60-62 most likely).

Thanks!

 

[Onmilo]

A couple pictures of the gun would be more helpful.

Are you aware that Silesia is a region of Germany that sits down on the Czech, Polish border area?
The area was originally Polish land but sceded to Germany in the late 18th, early 19th century.

In 1959 Germany was given back control of Police and Military force structure and began to rearm both.
I don't think the triggerguard marking is an import stamp.
I believe it is a Police ownership mark.

The gun was probably purchased as surplus from a German shop or from the American PX system Rod and Gun Club store by a Service Member and brought home., hence, no import stamps.

By 1977 almost all police had turned in their older firearms for either P5 (Walther), P6(Sig), or P7(H&K) pistols. The German Government routinely sells used handguns as surplus for needed cash.
Your period of use speculation would be about spot on, figure the gun was used between 1962 and 1976, then turned in as surplus to German needs.
I don't know if the requirement is still in force, but Germany was not allowed to keep excess firearms and was mandated to dispose of them.

 

[ahandgunner2]

Pictures

OK, Here are the pics requested...

 

[ahandgunner2]

Holster pics

AQlmost forgot...here's the holster too (may not be original with pistol but it came with it when i bought it)

 

[Onmilo]

Yeah, I'll bet the pistol was Silesia Police issue.
The holster is Australian/NewZealand pattern and issue. HTH

 

[Kabal]

I am no expert on BHPs, but I am German.

After WWII, Silesia was basically (re-)occupied by Poland. Most Germans were expulsed from there, and there has been no German province or region referred to as "Silesia" ever since.
A VERY small part of historic Silesia still belongs to Saxony, but no one would call it "Silesia", and it doesn't field an own police force... and even if it did, it would have been part of Communist Eastern Germany at the time this BHP was produced, and hardly equipped with Western guns.

I am pretty sure that "Silesia" on this BHP simply refers to the company that imported and/or sold these guns here in (Western) Germany, as the OP mentioned.

 

[Jim K]

I can't find any references on Google now, but "Silesia" is/was a sporting goods store in Germany. It may have originally been in Silesia, but IIRC it was somewhere in (West) Germany.

Jim

 

[tarosean]

OK, Here are the pics requested...

Nope it's a fake, and ill give you 101.12 to cover your time and shipping of it to me..


Just a joke
Very nice and clean.. I gotta towel up the drool over here.

 

[ahandgunner2]

Thanks Tarosean,
I'd let you have it for 101.12 but shipping would be an extra $800

I like it and need to get it out and shoot it now...but I guess I'm going to have to settle with the very little info I have.

I have to assume it's an early 60's commercial from W. Germany most likely brought back at some point in time from a vet. And the holster is a P51 style - Canadian, Australian, or British. So, I know more than I do thanks to you and the other members, but not as much as I'd like to. Guess that's just the way it goes with some guns.

Thanks again!

 

[Mizar]

I am pretty sure that "Silesia" on this BHP simply refers to the company that imported and/or sold these guns here in (Western) Germany, as the OP mentioned.

I believe that it is somewhat common practice in Germany for the importers to stamp the imported firearms with their company's logo. I have a Colt DS stamped "Geco G" just bellow the serial number.

Boris

 

[kBob]

I am backing the Form 6A returning serviceman route......having used it myself to import euro arms without import markings.

The American Rod and Gun Club that was part of the Armed Forces Eurpean Exchange System frequently offered euro police returns and such, sometimes even guns that could not then be imported into the US even by returning service men were offered like the CZ52 and Walther PPk were for sale.

I did a Form 6A import in 1976 and another in 1982 with a permanent change of station you were allowed a small number of firearms duty free.

While most German police may have been changed over by 1977 not all were. When I trained with a the Darmstaat special police group ( their SWAT Team) one day in 1982 they had but in the last few months changed to Sigs from ye olde Walther PP in .32 ACP. Being stationed across from the Hessian police school at that time I had occasion to see P1 P38s on occasion. The Frankfurt SPG was armed with P5s at that time and HK MP5K in a neat shoulder sling arrangement and MP5 SDs used with subsonic ammo of about 130 grain bullet weight. They claimed to have taken a bad guy inside Frankfurt Main Banhof with an MP 5SD being used in the rafters (lot of steel up there)to back up officers down on the floor and joked that the bullet was not recovered and they thought from film that the bullet likely lodged in a suitcase being carried by a little grandmother that was passing by was carrying. I saw some P1 (P38s) in 1975 as well but mostly PPs in those days. Oddly many folks thought the many German police to be unarmed for they carried under their coats reaching the PP holster through a coat skirt slit that was higher on the right than on the left. The guns in the cars I worked with in the mid 70's were early MP5s and there were Uzis at the station for special use. Funny as it seemed, most Police I spoke to where jealous of US cops' 12 gauge pumps...... even with an MP 5 and four full mags in the car.

-kBob