For those who think felons should never have guns...

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Too much stuff here to read but I thought I'd chime in nevertheless.

I don't know if this particular crime is a felony or what the legal definition of a felony is. However, it is worth noting that the law doesn't say "felony" when it prohibits firearm acquisition or possession. What 18 U.S.C. 922 says is something like "a crime punishable by a year of imprisonment or more".

So for light crimes it'd not be a problem. For more serious stuff, yeah - they'd have to earn their rights back.
 
Ironcode says: I don't know if this particular crime is a felony or what the legal definition of a felony is. However, it is worth noting that the law doesn't say "felony" when it prohibits firearm acquisition or possession. What 18 U.S.C. 922 says is something like "a crime punishable by a year of imprisonment or more".

So for light crimes it'd not be a problem. For more serious stuff, yeah - they'd have to earn their rights back.

That's the thing, Ironcode, we stupid law-abiding people - me and a couple others not to generalize - have no idea what a 'felony' or "a crime punishable by a year of imprisonment or more" is is is is, because the 'professional" law interpreters appear to enjoy twisting the letter of the law as they please.

Then they tell us to attend university to comprehend simple things like that. [I'm sorry, buddy, I studies 8 years already for my degrees, I do not need to know how you and yours twist common sense law into incomprehensible monkey talk.]

We ordinary common sense people are able to distinguish what "is" is. It takes an attorney to muddle things up. Whose interpretation of laws make more sense to most Americans?

If I were a betting man, and I ain't - being ignorant and stupid in addition to lacking the law degree - most citizens would forgive a teenager for his prank of graffiti, or a 14-year old autistic kid's art depicting a gun. No common-sense American would even think charging these kids with a felony.

It makes perfect sense to an attorney, however, to go for it.

[Who in their right mind would charge three Navy SEALs? An attorney!]

I'd bet also that most of us non-lawyers would agree that when a non-violent wo/man has paid his/her dues back to the society and demonstrated being trustworthy, s/he should have all his/her rights fully restored, owning a gun being one of them.

Lost causes should never see this side of a prison fence - ever. It's that simple. Yeah, I know, how to define a lost cause challenge from the attorney. Think about like the rest of us and it will come.

Our resident lawyer is for "freedom" but his 'freedom' resembles hardly the vision of freedom this country was founded on. The lawyers just create more laws that prohibit our law-abiding citizen's rights.

Finishing on an interesting note: we posses approximately equal number of cops (800,000), gang-bangers (800,000) and need 1,128,729 attorneys to handle the situation.

The gangs commit some 80% of the crime, yet the highly trained legal eagles are increasingly coming after us law-abiding American citizens for forging a signature, drawing a picture or sending an non-threatening e-mail to your representative.

Yet they - attorneys, lawyers, pick a name - are willing to offer the murdering scum a two-year sentence for a 30-year crime! This happens every day in America - every day, but the parents the OP's case are beyond sympathy and redemption and, more important, are raising an obvious criminal.

Then the federal government declares half of the country potential terrorists, because we don't like their politics, criminality, or bitterly cling to our 300,000,000 guns, ~1,000,000,000,000s (?) of rounds of ammunition and religion.

http://www.lawsome.net/arizona-misdemenor-felonies/ in Arizona that stated that if you committed a misdemeanor wearing a red mask that it automatically turns into a felony.

Soon we all are felons! Currently I posses one parking ticket in my criminal roster. I eagerly expect that to be elevated into the felony status when the time comes.

They sound like a couple of fundamentally dishonest and untrustworthy people, and I'm not going to waste any sympathy on them. They are liars, and they're probably raising their kids to be liars as well.
declares our resident attorney.

Proud to have the best legal system in the world!
 
Originally Posted by fiddletown
They are liars, and they're probably raising their kids to be liars as well.


Originally Posted by fiddletown
They haven't lost their rights yet. They've only been charged. They haven't been convicted, and I seriously doubt that the autistic kid will be.

Are they liars or have they only been charged? Which is it?
 
I didn't think it was necessary to quote the whole thing because most people here have it memorized.

As ratified by the states: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

As passed by Congress: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Now go do your homework about independent and dependent clauses.

No where does it state that anyone, including a felon, has a right to have a gun for protection from criminals - it all has to do with the ability to maintain a State free of tyranny............sorry, you're not quite there yet....(Understand I agree, but your argument is weak)
 
oneounceload said:
....No where does it [the Second Amendment] state that anyone, ...has a right to have a gun for protection from criminals - it all has to do with the ability to maintain a State free of tyranny...
Sorry, but I have to disagree. SCOTUS in Heller ruled expressly that the Second Amendment did describe an individual right to have a gun "for any lawful purpose." And that of course includes personal protection from criminals, since personal protection from criminals is a lawful purpose.

The Heller decision did include dicta strongly suggesting that keeping guns from criminals would be within the scope of permissible government regulation of this individual right. But under controlling case law the Second Amendment unquestionably includes an individual right to keep a gun for personal protection from criminals.
 
fiddletown said:
But under controlling case law the Second Amendment unquestionably includes an individual right to keep a gun for personal protection from criminals.

In reality, it doesn't make any difference why we keep and bear arms. Our right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. That's all the discussion that is needed. How we use them is another thing altogether.

If I keep and bear a certain arm for self defense, it makes no difference that that is the reason. To keep and bear arms needs no reason. If I ever actually use it for self defense, that's the reason that I used it, not why I keep and bear it. It's an inalienable and absolute right. It's as inalienable and absolute as the right to breathe.

fiddletown said:
By specifically stating that it's unconstitutional to deprive non-violent ex-cons of guns, you have effectively implied that it's not unconstitutional to do so with violent ex-cons.

Huh?

fiddletown said:
If it's constitutional to deprive a criminal of lawful access to guns while in prison, why isn't it constitutional to deprive a criminal of lawful access to guns after he leaves prison? I see nothing in the Constitution that prohibits different elements of the overall penalty for a crime being of different durations. It's constitutional to penalize a criminal act with a fine immediately payable plus a period of incarceration. So why wouldn't it also be constitutional to add a period of deprivation of one or more civil liberties or rights continuing after the period of incarceration?

The limited range of Congress's punishment powers aside, what ever Congress does must be a granted power. Congress doesn't need to be prohibited anything specific unless it has been granted some related power in general. Imposing some sort of punishment of a duration beyond a period of incarceration is ludicrous. After being released, government has no effective means to enforce such a sentence unless such released criminal is placed under the control of a permanent guardian.


fiddletown said:
Really? Parole boards don't seem to have been doing a very good job of it.

Good point, but keeping people locked up until they're safe to release upon society will negate any need for parole or parole boards. After you do your time, you get a review in court, and if expert testimony says you're safe to be released upon society, out you go. Fail and it's back inside for you!

Woody
 
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ConstitutionCowboy said:
In reality, it doesn't make any difference why we keep and bear arms. Our right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. That's all the discussion that is needed. How we use them is another thing altogether....
[1] I was responding specifically to an assertion that the 2nd Amendment does not describe a right to keep and bears arms for personal protection.

[2] In any case, my response was based on the current state of the law as set out in binding Supreme Court precedent, not your non-binding private view of things.

ConstitutionCowboy said:
...The limited range of Congress's punishment powers aside, what ever Congress does must be a granted power. Congress doesn't need to be prohibited anything specific unless it has been granted some related power in general. Imposing some sort of punishment of a duration beyond a period of incarceration is ludicrous. After being released, government has no effective means to enforce such a sentence unless such released criminal is placed under the control of a permanent guardian...
[1] If your claim is that Congress had no power to enact the GCA of 1968, and specifically the prohibited person provision, that will be up to a court. Thus far, with the exception of a decision of a panel of the 7th Circuit relating to domestic violence misdemeanors, which decision has been vacated and is of no further force or effect, the prohibited person provisions have withstood challenge. So I guess at least so far the courts have concluded that Congress had the power to enact the GCA of 1968.

[2] Whether you think a punishment extending beyond the period of incarceration is ludicrous is irrelevant. It's not your decision.

[3] The prohibitions on lawful access to guns by prohibited persons is enforced in part by the background check system and in part by the penalties which can be imposed on a prohibited person for the unlawful possession of a gun. Such enforcement mechanism may be imperfect, but all mechanisms for the enforcement of punishment on criminals are imperfect. Even in prison, prisoners manage to obtain prohibited weapons and prohibited drugs.

ConstitutionCowboy said:
...Good point, but keeping people locked up until they're safe to release upon society will negate any need for parole or parole boards. After you do your time, you get a review in court, and if expert testimony says you're safe to be released upon society, out you go. Fail and it's back inside for you!...
What do you think parole is all about?

[1] Parole is a process whereby a prisoner may seek release after a certain minimum portion of his sentence has been served, and before the maximum period of his sentence has been served. But a prisoner is supposed to be released on parole only if the parole board determines he is safe to be released upon society.

[2] In effect, it really doesn't matter when that question is asked. It's always the same question: Is the prisoner safe to be released into society?

[3] To attempt to answer that question, a parole board will examine the prisoner's record, consult with experts, solicit the opinions of interested parties, and often hold a hearing.

[4] Notwithstanding the process employed by the parole board to decide if a convict is safe to be released into society, they are, apparently, often wrong. Persons paroled are often back in trouble. So why would your process of, " ...After you do your time, you get a review in court, and if expert testimony says you're safe to be released upon society, out you go..." be any better than review by a parole board? The review by the parole board includes expert testimony.
 
Did you know that your gun "rights" can be taken away for 5th degree assault?

If someone wants to hurt a gunowner/enthusiest, all they have to do is falsely testify that the person raised a fist to them or "made a threatening motion toward them" and it's domestic "violence". You don't even have to touch the person! My neighbor and her husband were in the midst of starting a rather ugly divorce but both were still living next to me. They were bar-b-quing when an argument broke out and I saw her dump a beer over his head while she walked past him. Pretty harmless (& humorous) stuff.......... I thought.
Twenty minutes later, I saw the cops pull up and shortly thereafter she was handcuffed and booked on 5th degree assault!!! I talked to her and went to her trial. That's what the "assault" was - the beer. I couldn't believe it.
Her guns were confiscated before she was released from jail. They divorced and I haven't seen either since so I don't know if she ever got her guns back.
Anti-gun people would rejoice in this story.
 
fiddletown said:
[1] I was responding specifically to an assertion that the 2nd Amendment does not describe a right to keep and bears arms for personal protection.

All the Second Amendment says is that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. That's about as all encompassing and at the same time nonspecific as one can get with such an unequivocal absolute statement and the right it protects.

fiddletown said:
[2] In any case, my response was based on the current state of the law as set out in binding Supreme Court precedent, not your non-binding private view of things.

The "current state of the law" as you point out only covers what the Court has ruled upon. There are many areas of reality (and the law if you wish to include every law about what you can't do and every non-existent law that might prohibit everything else) that the law hasn't touched. To do as I please, I don't need to ask for permission or wait for a law to be written or a court decision to come around whenever I want to do something no law has touched.

fiddletown said:
[2] Whether you think a punishment extending beyond the period of incarceration is ludicrous is irrelevant. It's not your decision.

That won't stop me from espousing the way it should be, though, and it does become my decision when I vote for people who see things the way I do.

fiddletown said:
[1] Parole is a process whereby a prisoner may seek release after a certain minimum portion of his sentence has been served, and before the maximum period of his sentence has been served. But a prisoner is supposed to be released on parole only if the parole board determines he is safe to be released upon society.

Such a person is not truly released. He must periodically check in with his parole officer. When I say "released", I mean truly released.

fiddletown said:
[4] Notwithstanding the process employed by the parole board to decide if a convict is safe to be released into society, they are, apparently, often wrong. Persons paroled are often back in trouble. So why would your process of, " ...After you do your time, you get a review in court, and if expert testimony says you're safe to be released upon society, out you go..." be any better than review by a parole board? The review by the parole board includes expert testimony.

Parole boards get it wrong all to often because they are usually forced to "release" a specific number. Not only that, the parole system releases criminals before their sentence is completed. Prisoners are also released on the assumption they will now abide the law, or that the wearing of a GPS devise will keep them out of school areas, parks, away from gangs, etc. It's folly.

Woody
 
ConstitutionCowboy said:
The "current state of the law" as you point out only covers what the Court has ruled upon....
As far as I'm concerned, that's what counts. Not your alternate reality.

ConstitutionCowboy said:
...Such a person is not truly released. He must periodically check in with his parole officer. When I say "released", I mean truly released...
What difference does that make? The parole board is supposed to determine whether or not a convict is safe to be released into society. It they can't reliably do so, how do you expect your fantasy system to do so?

ConstitutionCowboy said:
...Parole boards get it wrong all to often because they are usually forced to "release" a specific number....
What evidence do you have to support that conjecture?

ConstitutionCowboy said:
...the parole system releases criminals before their sentence is completed....
Not exactly. The criminal must complete a specified term before he may apply for parole. In any case, what difference does that make?

In your model, after the convict has been incarcerated a specified period of time, an inquiry is undertaken to determine if he is fit to be released; and if it is determined he is not, he stays. In the parole model, after the convict has been incarcerated a specified period of time an inquiry is undertaken to determine if he is fit to be released; and if it is determined he is not, he stays. It all comes down to a question of whether it can be reliably determined if a convict is fit to be released. And it appears questionable that such a determination can reliably be made.
 
What evidence do you have to support that conjecture?

Do a google search for "early prisoner release for overcrowding" and 516,000 hits come up.

They were release NOT because they fullfilled their penalty. They were released to meet a number just as Constitution Cowboy claimed.

Is that enough support to make it not conjecture?

Truely amazing.
 
fiddletown said:
It all comes down to a question of whether it can be reliably determined if a convict is fit to be released. And it appears questionable that such a determination can reliably be made.

Well, until it can be reliably determined, I guess those violent criminals will just have to stay locked up, won't they!

As for those out on parole, they are not truly free. They are most likely just as dangerous as before they went to prison, too, based upon the rate of recidivism.
 
BOTTOM LINE

Violent criminals belong in prison until they are either dead or no longer violent. I shouldn't have to prove I'm not one of them to buy a gun.

Woody
 
ConstitutionCowboy said:
...Do a google search for "early prisoner release for overcrowding" and 516,000 hits come up....
Nope, it's your claim so it's your burden of proof.

ConstitutionCowboy said:
...They were release NOT because they fullfilled their penalty...
But to support your claim you must establish that they were released without the parole boards determining through their procedures that they were fit to be released.

ConstitutionCowboy said:
...As for those out on parole, they are not truly free. They are most likely just as dangerous as before they went to prison, too, based upon the rate of recidivism....
So convicts are released to remain under supervision after the parole board had determined they were fit to be release, having investigated their records and behavior during incarceration, having had expert evaluation of their characters and having heard from interested parties; and a substantial number of these paroled convicts are still not able to avoid further criminal behavior while being monitored. But you claim there is a way to determine that a convict is safe to be released into society without any supervision? Really now.
 
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MinnMooney says: Did you know that your gun "rights" can be taken away for 5th degree assault?

If someone wants to hurt a gunowner/enthusiest, all they have to do is falsely testify that the person raised a fist to them or "made a threatening motion toward them" and it's domestic "violence". You don't even have to touch the person!

Thank you for sharing.

This is the gist of the whole 'felons should be barred from owning a firearm' debate.

The fact that people fail to comprehend this simple truth is beyond me. This is the threat we're facing increasingly every day - all of us.

The eagerness of the government to get rid of us law-abiding gun owners tells bundles. If memory serves, 1/3 (1/4th?) of Americans could be labeled as mentally disqualified from owning a gun. Just wait until they get their hands on your records.

They will not stop until America is a gun-free zone - at least they will try which ever way possible; the labeling is now the latest fashion. We law-abiding Americans are being labeled as potential terrorists, ... whatever sticks they will not stop.

Any American - this does not apply to jihadis, real terrorists, or suicide bombers, or islamists extremist that do no exists in the lexicon of our national security people - that is so dangerous he can't be trusted with a firearm, should never leave a prison - violent felons!

Defend the Second Amendment.
 
Nope, it's your claim so it's your burden of proof.

But to support your claim you must establish that they were released without the parole boards determining through their procedures that they were fit to be released.

1) You quoted the wrong person.
2) If I need to provide proof to my claims, so do you. Start posting up support for your claims otherwise your claims are conjecture. Burden of proof goes both ways.
3) Since when do YOU get to determine what criteria is acceptable?

But I'll play just for fun.
From info Mar 23 2010 NYT.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/24/us/24calprisons.html


This shows they are doing it NOT for the reason of the criminal rehabilitated; not because of the parole board.

"The state has begun in recent weeks the most significant changes since the 1970s to reduce overcrowding."

This shows they are trying to meet a number as Constitution Cowboy stated

"The goal is to reduce the number of inmates in the state’s 33 prisons next year by 6,500 — more than the entire state prison population in 2009 of Nebraska, New Mexico, Utah or West Virginia."

This shows that they're making a formula for time served; again, not because of the parole board.

"Some prisoners may also be released early for completing drug and education programs or have their sentences reduced under new formulas for calculating time served. "

And finally....

“We are concerned about victims these felons will leave in their wake before being rearrested for committing new crimes,” said Paul M. Weber, the president of the Los Angeles police union.


Again, If I need to provide proof to my claims(which were really CowboyConstitutions), so do you. You made A LOT of claims in this thread. Burden of proof goes both ways.

With-out YOU providing support for YOUR claims, your claims are conjecture BY YOUR OWN CRITERIA that YOU have set.

Also, by you not providing proof, you will have solidified that you repeatedly apply a double standard at your own whim with the intent to benefit yourself, and not the discussion as a whole, as you have already done in this thread with SuperNaut.
 
Forgery is a felony when especially when forging a doctors note, if they signed the doctors name they are screwed. That would be the same a signing his name to a prescription. They can't break it down into a million catagories of when it's "not a felony" to forge a signature. Checks, drugs,registrations, passports, see where this goes.
 
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