Four teenagers, What would you do?

[Titan6]

Spring has arrived here in Texas, beautiful sunny 70 degree day a little 5mph breeze, perfect. What is a man with two boys to do but load up a bunch of clips of .22 ammo and take them to the range for the morning? So off we go with a quick stop at the office to pick something up.
The office is located in a little business park surrounded on all sides by small office buildings vacant during the day time. We have had three break-ins in the office park over weekends since I have been working there over a year now.
So I am loading the back of the car and my elementary age boys are in the back seat and I look over and see four of the coolest wannabe gangbangers with pants hanging off their buts and sideways baseball caps coming around the corner trying locked doors on the outside of the building.
I snap into action and go from alert stage bright umber to light mauve and shout 'GET AWAY FROM THERE!, This is private property you are tresspassing you need to leave right now!'. They stop a moment An uncomfortable silence of them having caught their hands in the cookie jar. They change direction and as a group walk quickly towards me where I am at the rear of the vehicle which is closest to them. There are four of them about 13-16 years old about 100 feet away. I am in civilans. Less than two feet from my hands in the trunk with no way for the kids to see are 2 10/22 rifles and numerous fully loaded hi cap magazines. I have my cell phone in my hand. What would you do?

 

[Gocart]

In that they focused their attention on you and moved toward you, and it's 4 on 1, pick up a rifle, load it and repeat your instructions to leave.

Or you could just leave and take your kids out of the drama.

 

[doc2rn]

Lock and load then dial 911.

 

[tank mechanic]

I would have one hand with the cell phone to my ear with 911 on the line and when they got closer I would knock the biggest one out. Then I would continue to choke them out one by one until they got the hint. There is no way anyone would believe you,( no matter how justified) that you needed to use a fire arm against those underage scumbags. They would be portrayed as future humanitarians who took care of lost puppies and make you look like you senselessly took away a valuable asset to the community.

 

[Mad Chemist]

There are only two options that make any sense, load rifle(s) or get in your car and leave. Since you had your kids with you I'm hoping that you left the area.

 

[ZeSpectre]

It's really easy to armchair quarterback, not so easy when you are in the situation.

If I'd kept my head about me in such a situation, and since we're talking about a four vs one force multiplier against me -and- kids present I'd have hauled ass out of there so that I could call the cops and give a description from a safe distance.

If you didn't have the time to enter vehicle and skedaddle I'm not sure what to tell you in such a situation because there are just too many variables.

 

[Titan6]

Here is what I did

They looked too young to be a serious threat. Size wise I am pretty decent size and in pretty good shape also. Another year or two older and we might have been talking high drama. 100 feet is a lot closer than you think and I was pretty sure there was not enough time to try and bail and didn't want to try and deal with an assault on my vehicle either with the kids inside.

So I stuck my hand in the trunk and left it there. It was like watching a flock of birds as they changed direction again; this time in the opposite direction. They skirted away from towards one of the other buildings and keeping an eye on me started trying doors again! Now I am really getting pissed so I start dialing....

They never saw my kids or guns (I think) so they probably never realized what a dangerous situation they were actually in. when they saw me on the phone dialing they dispersed into the woodline at high rate of speed and that was the end of it.

But now something else makes a lot of sense after our last break in the LEOs said that they had increased night patrols but it hadn't helped. I can see why, this was in the middle of the day.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

not exactly the high road , however..

"I would have one hand with the cell phone to my ear with 911 on the line and when they got closer I would knock the biggest one out. Then I would continue to choke them out one by one until they got the hint. There is no way anyone would believe you,( no matter how justified) that you needed to use a fire arm against those underage scumbags. They would be portrayed as future humanitarians who took care of lost puppies and make you look like you senselessly took away a valuable asset to the community."

some tears back i was in Georgetown park mall in dc. i was coming from catering event and in a tux. there were 4 young men wandering "shopping who were not of the demographic usually found there . they were being "observed " by a number of mall security who seemed to also feel that they were not typical shoppers. i got on a glass walled elevator on the third level and started down. on level 2 the doors opened and the young gentlemen entered in their full and glorious splendor. as they came in one of them looked at me sneered and called me a name intended to impugn my man hood that starts with f. i hit him in the mouth and started a very short but intense dance with them in the elevator. they were caught totally unaware. it never crossed their mind that they weren't the predator. it was a lil hard on the tux but it was a ball. whole thing lasted 8 seconds max and when doors opened on level one they were swarmed by the security that had been shadowing them. they kept shouting "he started it" but no one believed them. i shoulda let it go but i was 22 had just did a 8 months as a guest of the state of Virginia with lots tougher guys than these 4. i took advantage of the concept that he who strikes first often strikes best.
damn i miss being young sometimes

 

[Lonestar49]

...

Titan6, don't forget to add, had they tried to assult you (and succeeded) and then gotten the guns, who's to say what they would have done, being 3 witness's to such a crime. Ya did good.


LS

 

[Travis Lee]

Titan6, If you think that these teenagers were not a serious threat you are kidding yourself.

I think it was ONLY the fact that you had your hand out of sight and on a weapon which kept them from taking you down like a pack of jackals.

Been there.

--Travis--

 

[Titan6]

Positive Results

Up till today it had never occurred to me to discuss 'react to contact' drills with the kids.

It took the older one mentioning to me after we got back from the range that he was worried about the 'older kids' and had I been assaulted he would have gotten out to help me to trigger that particular conversation.

I told him in that situation in no uncertain terms to lock the doors get in the front seat and bang the horn repeatedly and not unlock the doors until the police showed. He asked 'well what if they start breaking the glass to get in' and I told him if they succeeded to run for it. Sometimes they are no easy answers.....

 

[Byron Quick]

I've known a fourteen year old to produce a concussion with a bare handed punch and he wasn't a bruiser, either. Weedy kid. Tall for his age but skinny. Probably about the size of a sixteen year old.

 

[razorburn]

LS, murder to cover up trespassing doesn't seem likely to me.

 

[Byron Quick]

razorburn,

As often as murder occurs for no reason at all, your comment seems a mite irrelevant.

 

[Titan6]

'Not much of a threat'

What I meant was that they looked just young and wannabe enough that they could be easily intimidated by a larger mature man possibly sporting a weapon. Physically I am not trained enough to take on four teenagers and know of very few who would come out ahead in such an encounter.
With my kids in the car I don't think I would have taken that chance. I feel lucky they backed down.

 

[razorburn]

I believe murder without motive is quite rare, unless you have the stats for that. And commiting about the highest crime in the country to cover up a mild misdemeanor, which would likely result either in small fine or no punishment at all, is very improbable. About as likely as someone having an overdue library book and deciding to blow up the library to try to erase the records and cover it up.

 

[Gocart]

razor, it's prudent to expect and prepare for the worst. Statistically, we'll very likely never need a gun for self protection, but many of us tote one all the time.

I think Tital was right on the money by assuming hostile intent and planning accordingly. The stakes were a lot higher since he had his kids in tow.

 

[razorburn]

Oh, I certainly agree with his actions. If somebody is presenting a threat to you, call the cops or leave the situation. I suppose I'm focusing too much on details again, disagreeing with the logic of someone else who tried to make a connection between someone commiting murder, killing someone else and their kids as witnesses to something like trespassing.

 

[DakotaDude]

You asked what to do when the guys started toward you, and I think what you did was reasonable. But consider that if you had not confronted them verbally in the first place, and simply got in your car and dialed 911 as you left, there may have never been any threat to you and your kids.

Obviously, hindsight is 20/20, and it is easy to criticize from behind my keyboard, but I think the lesson to be learned here is not to confront potential criminals if you are not ready for the confrontation to go "all the way."

 

[gunsmith]

razorburn

people get killed for 25 cents sometimes, I knew a guy in NYC who killed two girls because he thought he was God, people kill for a pair of Nikes.
Some killers just enjoy hearing their victims plead.

That you can't imagine it simply shows that your not a heartless killer.

Oh..but back to the topic....if I had kids with me I wouldn't have said squat , just called it in.

 

[Travis Lee]

I believe murder without motive is quite rare, unless you have the stats for that. And commiting about the highest crime in the country to cover up a mild misdemeanor, which would likely result either in small fine or no punishment at all, is very improbable. About as likely as someone having an overdue library book and deciding to blow up the library to try to erase the records and cover it up.

I think you are SO off base on this.

Thuglings like this are EXACTLY the demographic that makes up thrill killings, impulse killings on the street, and yes, killing a man and two kids to avoid having the cops called on them for attemped auto burglaries.

These larval sociopaths have little perspective beyond today when they are in their 20's... and in their teens... not even 15 minutes of foresight of inevitable consequences.

A 16 year old who has no father, no discipline, has grown up with other feral children, and is the alpha male of his pack is one of the most dangerous creatures you are likely to meet.

--Travis--

 

[Lonestar49]

...

Razor, it was a possible crime that could have gone awry/get fluid. One never knows what someone will do when panic/fear-of, sets in, to cover their tracks, and it had 1 in 4 odds to esculate.

In a perfect world, Titan6 would have had a German Shepherd in the back of the truck and those 4 kids would not have made it within 30ft towards Dad and kids, and weapons, nor would they have wanted to even start towards them.

But some people live in much safer environments than others, so I feel you are one of the luckier ones, and that is good.

Where I live, gang-bangers (all breeds and colors) have methods of indoctrination, killing a cop, etc. etc., and when they see a stash of guns, with ammo and witness's, they don't hesitate to silence witness's.


LS

 

[The Deer Hunter]

I think the gunstock would hurt quite a bit

 

[JLStorm]

I actually wouldnt have said anything at all and just called the police on them for tresspassing. I would have postponed the trip into the office and come back later. If I owned the business and leased the property I would have hung around until the police arrived. I just wouldnt want to put myself in a position where I was in front of a jury for wounding or killing some teenage boys over what started as tresspassing.

 

[FieroCDSP]

I can sympathise with Titan's initial reaction to say something to them.

I deal with shoplifters, and since I'm not security, the only thing I can do is make mean faces at them, and bug the hell out of them with good service. I would like to take them down and give them reason to think twice before coming into my store again, because when someone steals from me, and I can't do anything about it because lawyers make sure they have more rights than I, that ticks me off.
Titan's office has been broken into several times. He hasn't been able to do anything about it, so in some way, I'm sure it ticked him off to see four punks looking for free stuff. Nine times out of ten, when you yell at a young punk, he'll stop, realize he's been caught, and walk away. All of us have done something wrong when we were young, got caught, and learned a lesson, so we expect the same of kids today.
Unfortunately, many kids today are stupid. They're undisciplined, under-loved, and often under the influence. I noticed those traits in the class behind mine in school, and I was a 98 grad. The punks didn't care, and sometimes revelled in the fact that they were non-productive members of society. Sick.
Anyway, his yelling at them is a perfectly normal responce that many of us would do, so I don't hold it against him. When the punks started to approach, rather than walk away, Titan's hand was on the rifle, as mine would have been. It's technicly his territory, his family is there, and he feels threatened. The punks could be armed. Maybe they're looking to score some cash via mugging. You just don't know these days, do you?
So you go for a piece and start working on back-up plans, because the firearm is a variable that is in your favor. You don't have to fire it, or even aim it. If they get a glimpse of something rifle-shaped, they're going to focus on the fact it's a gun of some form, not that the barrel looks like a 22.
If they see it and are scared away, you're clear. They're not going to tell the cops, because cops want the whole story, and that screws them.

I'm not advocating brandishing at every possible threat. I'm saying I understand his initial reaction to the punks, the steps he took during the threat, and the fact he's learned something from it. Had it escalated, it would not have been good. The law doesn't work in our favor all the time, and especially if you waste some punk that's under-age.
This scenario represents (if not in action, then possibilities) what proper self-defense is about, IMO. Identify a possible threat, Evaluate the threat, Plan for action, and use a level of force necessary to eliminate/dissuade threat. Wash, repeat, rinse.