Tamara
Senior Member
Why I like beavertails...
...in only 1,000 words.
...in only 1,000 words.
GAK- Barf - new 1911's - like fins on a 50's car
- Thread starter Hal
- Start date
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member
Gee, don't you just hate it when logic is used then qualified with a great picture...and the person using supportive arguments is ...is..a...oh my...a girl
Great Pic Tamara.
Great Pic Tamara.
sm
member
I appreciate the classic JMB design. I don't care for FLGR, front serrations, two tone, or the various what -not gadets bell and whistles. I do believe in gun fit...but you people probably already had that impression of me.
I shoot high thumbs.
I can shoot a Mil-Spec as is, it is MY hands, that allows this ability. I do bob the hammer a bit, yep extended range sessions and not getting the grip just right,poor draw, getting fatigued- I get bit.
I have the factory beavertail on a Kimber Series I I carry, My hand fits this because I "whittled on it some". Why--When all heck breaks out and the potential for any diminished motor skills hits...my hand BETTER go where it needs to quick.
There is a place IMO for modifications to fit shooter. Yeah I'm a guy and agree with a girl...if it allows one to attain quick accurate hits...do it.
I shoot high thumbs.
I can shoot a Mil-Spec as is, it is MY hands, that allows this ability. I do bob the hammer a bit, yep extended range sessions and not getting the grip just right,poor draw, getting fatigued- I get bit.
I have the factory beavertail on a Kimber Series I I carry, My hand fits this because I "whittled on it some". Why--When all heck breaks out and the potential for any diminished motor skills hits...my hand BETTER go where it needs to quick.
There is a place IMO for modifications to fit shooter. Yeah I'm a guy and agree with a girl...if it allows one to attain quick accurate hits...do it.
Sarge:
There are plenty of folks in southern Arizona that tote .45's that look like the gun John Browning designed. Many are right good at shooting them too.
Just for the record, some of the first Colt .38 automatics had front serrations (but none at the back). Wasn't long before they got over it though .....
There are plenty of folks in southern Arizona that tote .45's that look like the gun John Browning designed. Many are right good at shooting them too.
Just for the record, some of the first Colt .38 automatics had front serrations (but none at the back). Wasn't long before they got over it though .....
Tamara
Senior Member
Same grip w/o beavertail... (Call me girlie, but I hate "racing stripes" on my hand; something that's all too easy to get w/o a device to locate my grip properly each and every time... )
)Tamara
Senior Member
Old Fuff,
If John Browning wants to come shoot my guns, he can change them to look how he wants. When he gives them back, he durn well better put 'em back the way he found 'em, though.
(I'm sure that somewhere folks are driving Model T''s just the way Henry Ford built 'em, too, with no pansy electric starters or anything... )
If John Browning wants to come shoot my guns, he can change them to look how he wants. When he gives them back, he durn well better put 'em back the way he found 'em, though.
(I'm sure that somewhere folks are driving Model T''s just the way Henry Ford built 'em, too, with no pansy electric starters or anything...
)Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
Pointing out "a" way is different from claiming to have "the" way.
I've gone both ways (does that sound right?!?), and the beavertail has merit. But it is not the way to get no bite and a higher grip, just one way. There are some beavertails that can give you a higher grip than you can get other ways, but most of them don't lower the gun in your hand that much. Then again, there are very few people who try to do anything but throw a beavertail in there nowadays, either, so few people consider the possibility of another way.
And if JMB comes back from the grave to shoot my guns, I'm shooting his zombie ???!
I've gone both ways (does that sound right?!?), and the beavertail has merit. But it is not the way to get no bite and a higher grip, just one way. There are some beavertails that can give you a higher grip than you can get other ways, but most of them don't lower the gun in your hand that much. Then again, there are very few people who try to do anything but throw a beavertail in there nowadays, either, so few people consider the possibility of another way.
And if JMB comes back from the grave to shoot my guns, I'm shooting his zombie ???!
Trimming the hammer a little bit, reshaping the grip safety a little to eliminate hammer bite. Beavertail and commander hammer. What's the difference? In intent, none, in degree very little. So you draw the line in a different place than I do. Okay.
So, modifying the 1911 a bit to make it fit my hand better to where I can shoot better and more comfortably is wrong? The only right way is exactly the way John Browning designed it? Sorry, I'm not a masochist and if I have to go into harm's way, I'm going to cheat!!!
Edited to add: Heaven knows, I've even done modifications to my guns just because I think they look cool and don't add one single thing to their tacticality.
So, modifying the 1911 a bit to make it fit my hand better to where I can shoot better and more comfortably is wrong? The only right way is exactly the way John Browning designed it? Sorry, I'm not a masochist and if I have to go into harm's way, I'm going to cheat!!!
Edited to add: Heaven knows, I've even done modifications to my guns just because I think they look cool and don't add one single thing to their tacticality.
Tamara
Senior Member
I'm still trying to figure out what exactly "eliminating hammer bite" and "keeping my hand from choking up so far it gets sliced by the slide" have to do with each other.
Maybe a dozen more years of shooting these things will lead me to a zen-like state of enlightenment.
As always, YMMV...
Maybe a dozen more years of shooting these things will lead me to a zen-like state of enlightenment.
As always, YMMV...
To some, their weapons are grownup toys.
To others they are status symbols.
To a few, they are tools.
Mine are tools, they were designed by JMB to kill the enemy. I will only change something if it enables me to kill the enemy more efficiently.
Regards,
Happyguy
P.S. Some folks sit around and meditate while staring at the folds of steel in the blade of a katana. I suspect that some custom 1911 owners do the same thing.
To others they are status symbols.
To a few, they are tools.
Mine are tools, they were designed by JMB to kill the enemy. I will only change something if it enables me to kill the enemy more efficiently.
Regards,
Happyguy
P.S. Some folks sit around and meditate while staring at the folds of steel in the blade of a katana. I suspect that some custom 1911 owners do the same thing.
Nightcrawler
Member
Why do you hold the pistol so high? Is it just more comfortable for you?
See, my Colt is not the first 1911 I've owned. (My first was a Charles Daly Commander clone that I must've put about 200 rounds through in the year I had it). It is the first I've owned since I've been a serious shooter, though.
I guess I haven't been to enough shooting schools to know how to "properly" grip a 1911, with everybody talking about high holds and such. I just grabbed it, lined up the sights, and went to town. *shrug*
As for shooting with the thumb on the safety. Why? I can see that for a quick first shot you'd probably fire with the thumb there, but is there any reason to leave the thumb on the safety during an extended shooting session?
Holding my Colt in my right hand (so my thumb can actually contact the safety), it's very uncomfortable to hold the pistol with the thumb up on the safety. The grip angle is awkward and I don't feel like I have a solid hold on the weapon. Perhaps a beavertail would facilitate this, but I still don't see a reason to leave my thumb way up there (and then on top of that modifying the gun so as to accomodate it). Also, my pistol has the original "Short" safety, not one of the longer ones you see these days. It is, however, very functional and all I require.
However, even with the spur hammer, there's no way the hammer, even in it's farthest back position, could hit my hand. All the way back to the point where it's contacting the grip safety, and it still doesn't appear to be in any danger of biting me, even with my thumb on the safety.
This all said, even firing right handed, I can't shoot the pistol with my thumb on the safety. Doing so brings the web of my hand too far away from where it's supposed to be (so awkward is this grip) to the point where it's no longer depressing the grip safety; the gun won't fire. (Unless I shift my grip a little bit. Still, I don't see the point of going through all of this just to have my thumb in a place it feels uncomfortable in.)
See, my Colt is not the first 1911 I've owned. (My first was a Charles Daly Commander clone that I must've put about 200 rounds through in the year I had it). It is the first I've owned since I've been a serious shooter, though.
I guess I haven't been to enough shooting schools to know how to "properly" grip a 1911, with everybody talking about high holds and such. I just grabbed it, lined up the sights, and went to town. *shrug*
As for shooting with the thumb on the safety. Why? I can see that for a quick first shot you'd probably fire with the thumb there, but is there any reason to leave the thumb on the safety during an extended shooting session?
Holding my Colt in my right hand (so my thumb can actually contact the safety), it's very uncomfortable to hold the pistol with the thumb up on the safety. The grip angle is awkward and I don't feel like I have a solid hold on the weapon. Perhaps a beavertail would facilitate this, but I still don't see a reason to leave my thumb way up there (and then on top of that modifying the gun so as to accomodate it). Also, my pistol has the original "Short" safety, not one of the longer ones you see these days. It is, however, very functional and all I require.
However, even with the spur hammer, there's no way the hammer, even in it's farthest back position, could hit my hand. All the way back to the point where it's contacting the grip safety, and it still doesn't appear to be in any danger of biting me, even with my thumb on the safety.
This all said, even firing right handed, I can't shoot the pistol with my thumb on the safety. Doing so brings the web of my hand too far away from where it's supposed to be (so awkward is this grip) to the point where it's no longer depressing the grip safety; the gun won't fire. (Unless I shift my grip a little bit. Still, I don't see the point of going through all of this just to have my thumb in a place it feels uncomfortable in.)
dav
Member
An opinion from another direction
I have only recently "seen the light" and started shooting.
These days, "modified" 1911s are as standard as old mil spec guns. All the exposure I had was to 1911's with beavertails, and extended this, and ambi that.
I didn't know any better, so I just got what I could shoot best after renting several 45s. Turned out it was a Kimber.
So, I have and like my two-tone, beavertail, extended ambi-safety 1911 clone. Next time I might get something different, but I sure didn't know I would offend anyone with my choice.
Sorry guys, I like fancy guns as long as they work, just as much as plain stock gun, as long as it works!
I have only recently "seen the light" and started shooting.
These days, "modified" 1911s are as standard as old mil spec guns. All the exposure I had was to 1911's with beavertails, and extended this, and ambi that.
I didn't know any better, so I just got what I could shoot best after renting several 45s. Turned out it was a Kimber.
So, I have and like my two-tone, beavertail, extended ambi-safety 1911 clone. Next time I might get something different, but I sure didn't know I would offend anyone with my choice.
Sorry guys, I like fancy guns as long as they work, just as much as plain stock gun, as long as it works!
FJC
Member
I like a good high hold as well.
And Tamara, I love that first picture above. All the lint within the hollows of the hammer shows me that it is a carry gun .
And Tamara, I love that first picture above. All the lint within the hollows of the hammer shows me that it is a carry gun .
dav,
I don't think anyone is offended by your choice of weapon. There are a lot of individual choices to make when selecting a pistol and we don't all arrive at the same place at the same time. If you shoot your pistol well, then you shouldn't give a care what anyone else is shooting.
But the longer you shoot/live, the more opinionated you get. Then one day you will arrive at that state of total enlightenment known as curmudgeon. Then half the world will worship you and the other half will hurl animal feces in your general direction.
Regards,
Happyguy
I don't think anyone is offended by your choice of weapon. There are a lot of individual choices to make when selecting a pistol and we don't all arrive at the same place at the same time. If you shoot your pistol well, then you shouldn't give a care what anyone else is shooting.
But the longer you shoot/live, the more opinionated you get. Then one day you will arrive at that state of total enlightenment known as curmudgeon. Then half the world will worship you and the other half will hurl animal feces in your general direction.
Regards,
Happyguy
joenuclear
Member
- Joined
- May 20, 2003
- Messages
- 9
Tamara,
Is the 2nd pic posted a Detonic?
Joe
Is the 2nd pic posted a Detonic?
Joe
Well golly, kids...
I hardly know where to start.
Tam, there was no need to play the 'gender card' here. The only cartridge/gun I am aware of that was designed specifically for girls was the .40 S&W, anyhow. But I digress... When going to a smaller gun like the Detonics you simply dangle your pinky daintily fom the bottom of the grip while holding it in the normal fashion. The reason they put the trigger down there on the bottom of the frame is because that is where your trigger finger naturally falls when you are holding the gun correctly. This applies to big guns, too. If you grab the 1911 too high, the slide/hammer will offer some remedial instruction on where your hand needs to be. John was correct in building these little 'reminder systems' into the pistol. It has simply become more fashionable (and profitable for the marketeers, who capitalize on fads doncha know?) to try and engineer around them- rather than to pay attention to them.
Big guns kick a little, no matter how or where you grab them. Get used to the recoil and it becomes a non-issue. My little 120-pound wife shoots a GI 1911 like she was born with it in her hands, and I have to watch her or she holds it too low . The last time we had a WWII-era (Ithaca) 1911 around here the recoil bothered her so much she just about shot me outta reloads!
Shoot whatever you like, however you like. Leaves more normal guns for me.
And for whoever insinuated that you need front serrations to press-check a 1911? I don't think so. I was press-checking 1911's when Jimmy Carter was pretending to be president, and it was accomplished by simply hooking the thumb of the off-hand into the FRONT of the triggerguard, AWAY from the trigger, and pressing backward on the recoil spring plug with the index finger, enough to crack the slide open a bit. No voodoo here, just simple ergonomics taking advantage of the hands natural gripping strength, and a superbly ergonomic design. Of course, it won't work with those cool, tactical guide rod assemblies in your recoil spring- but guess what? You don't need them anyway. The gun works fine without them.
I believe the correct answer for 'hammer bite' when it does occur, is to check your grip and then bob the hammer if the problem persists. The standard Commander hammer has been around since the 50's, and solves this 'problem' altogether.
That's all the schoolhouse rock we have time for today... see you next week. BTW, wasn't it Al Gore who invented front serrations, anyway?
I hardly know where to start.
Tam, there was no need to play the 'gender card' here. The only cartridge/gun I am aware of that was designed specifically for girls was the .40 S&W, anyhow.
But I digress... When going to a smaller gun like the Detonics you simply dangle your pinky daintily fom the bottom of the grip while holding it in the normal fashion. The reason they put the trigger down there on the bottom of the frame is because that is where your trigger finger naturally falls when you are holding the gun correctly. This applies to big guns, too. If you grab the 1911 too high, the slide/hammer will offer some remedial instruction on where your hand needs to be. John was correct in building these little 'reminder systems' into the pistol. It has simply become more fashionable (and profitable for the marketeers, who capitalize on fads doncha know?) to try and engineer around them- rather than to pay attention to them.Big guns kick a little, no matter how or where you grab them. Get used to the recoil and it becomes a non-issue. My little 120-pound wife shoots a GI 1911 like she was born with it in her hands, and I have to watch her or she holds it too low . The last time we had a WWII-era (Ithaca) 1911 around here the recoil bothered her so much she just about shot me outta reloads!
Shoot whatever you like, however you like. Leaves more normal guns for me.
And for whoever insinuated that you need front serrations to press-check a 1911? I don't think so. I was press-checking 1911's when Jimmy Carter was pretending to be president, and it was accomplished by simply hooking the thumb of the off-hand into the FRONT of the triggerguard, AWAY from the trigger, and pressing backward on the recoil spring plug with the index finger, enough to crack the slide open a bit. No voodoo here, just simple ergonomics taking advantage of the hands natural gripping strength, and a superbly ergonomic design. Of course, it won't work with those cool, tactical guide rod assemblies in your recoil spring- but guess what? You don't need them anyway. The gun works fine without them.
I believe the correct answer for 'hammer bite' when it does occur, is to check your grip and then bob the hammer if the problem persists. The standard Commander hammer has been around since the 50's, and solves this 'problem' altogether.
That's all the schoolhouse rock we have time for today... see you next week. BTW, wasn't it Al Gore who invented front serrations, anyway?
I am with the people who don't understand the point of all this. Put your pistol together the way you want it; don't try to tell me how I should want mine to be. I have shot my 1911s fairly extensively. I have competed in IDPA, IPSC, bowling pin shoots, and formal classes. I have carried my 1911s and I have trained with them. After owning 1911s for over 20 years I have decided what I want my pistols to have. I enjoy a good discussion of the merits of various features, but in the end, I make up my own mind.
I shoot "high thumbs" and after being introduced to it, I feel it is the only "right" way to do it. For this reason, I have an oversized thumb safety. I want my grip as high on the gun as possible. I use a beavertail. I do have a "racing stripe" on the web of my hand not entirely from 1911s, but 1911s have contributed to it. The installation of the beavertail required a new hammer on my main "go-to" 1911. Those are the only modifications to my 1911s. I shoot stock sights, stock trigger, no throating, no action job, no trigger job, no match anything. The finish is worn through in places and I have nothing added for looks. I press check by putting my whole hand over the rear of the slide, the same as I do for charging the pistol or for doing a malfunction drill.
I am quite satisfied with my pistols in their present form.
I shoot "high thumbs" and after being introduced to it, I feel it is the only "right" way to do it. For this reason, I have an oversized thumb safety. I want my grip as high on the gun as possible. I use a beavertail. I do have a "racing stripe" on the web of my hand not entirely from 1911s, but 1911s have contributed to it. The installation of the beavertail required a new hammer on my main "go-to" 1911. Those are the only modifications to my 1911s. I shoot stock sights, stock trigger, no throating, no action job, no trigger job, no match anything. The finish is worn through in places and I have nothing added for looks. I press check by putting my whole hand over the rear of the slide, the same as I do for charging the pistol or for doing a malfunction drill.
I am quite satisfied with my pistols in their present form.
Tamara
Senior Member
Nightcrawler,
Because it allows me to shoot faster and more accurately. Would there be any other reason?
Me, too. Then I experimented to see if there was a way I could do it better.
Because I found that changing the position of my thumb in the middle of a shooting string was counterproductive to the cause of speed and accuracy.
Sarge,
I am holding it in a "normal" fashion. Adjusting where the top of your hand indexes on the gun based on which gun you are holding would seem less "normal" to me. (Incidentally, the Detonics picture would have looked the same whether I was using my Detonics or my roommate's WWII GI gun; it's the upper part of my hand that indexes my grip, not the lower. My pinky is tucked underneath the mag floorplate in the Detonics photo. back at you. )
If I grab the 1911 "too high", then I will miss and shoot slower. If I shoot faster and more accurately, and the gun does not jam, then, ipso facto, I am not gripping the gun too high. Nicht wahr?
Because it allows me to shoot faster and more accurately. Would there be any other reason?
Me, too. Then I experimented to see if there was a way I could do it better.
Because I found that changing the position of my thumb in the middle of a shooting string was counterproductive to the cause of speed and accuracy.
Sarge,
I am holding it in a "normal" fashion. Adjusting where the top of your hand indexes on the gun based on which gun you are holding would seem less "normal" to me. (Incidentally, the Detonics picture would have looked the same whether I was using my Detonics or my roommate's WWII GI gun; it's the upper part of my hand that indexes my grip, not the lower. My pinky is tucked underneath the mag floorplate in the Detonics photo.
back at you. )If I grab the 1911 "too high", then I will miss and shoot slower. If I shoot faster and more accurately, and the gun does not jam, then, ipso facto, I am not gripping the gun too high. Nicht wahr?
Tamara
Senior Member
PS to Nightcrawler,
Then it has passed the test: It works for you.
Leave it that way and be happy.
(My favorite 1911 has very sharp 20 lpi checkering on the frontstrap. Some friends complain that it hurts their hands when they shoot it; for me, it's just right. That's why they make all different kinds of guns. "One man's trash is another man's treasure." )
Then it has passed the test: It works for you.
Leave it that way and be happy.
(My favorite 1911 has very sharp 20 lpi checkering on the frontstrap. Some friends complain that it hurts their hands when they shoot it; for me, it's just right. That's why they make all different kinds of guns. "One man's trash is another man's treasure."
)10-Ring
Member
After exeriencing hammer bite for the first time, I discovered I didn't enjoy bleeding while shooting my guns. The beavertail, hammer & in turn trigger & trigger work just make the shooting experience more enjoyable.
clubsoda22
member
my dad has an original series 70 gold cup national match (not the new series 70). No beavertail, good old fashioned spur hammer. only time i ever get bit is when i'm being a dumbass, which was only once. I like the classic look myself.
Looks just like this:
Thank colt for bringing back the series 70!
If i was gonna buy a 1911 i'd get a Springfield Mil Spec. No nonsence.
If you want a dead on WWII replica, go Auto ordnance. Old timers will tell you ther are junk, but ever since kahr bought out auto ornance, there has been nothing but good thind said about their 1911's. Only problem is that they kept the bad name. oh well. (i'd still buy the springfield as i'm not interested in a dead on replica, which happens to cost the same, just a good old fashioned 1911)
Looks just like this:
Thank colt for bringing back the series 70!
If i was gonna buy a 1911 i'd get a Springfield Mil Spec. No nonsence.
If you want a dead on WWII replica, go Auto ordnance. Old timers will tell you ther are junk, but ever since kahr bought out auto ornance, there has been nothing but good thind said about their 1911's. Only problem is that they kept the bad name. oh well. (i'd still buy the springfield as i'm not interested in a dead on replica, which happens to cost the same, just a good old fashioned 1911)
**** sigh ****
Guess, I'm just gettin' old....course I have been known to say lately I'm glad I'm old and gonna die soon..
Ain't that I mind the froohickeys - doo dads as much as it's the extreme that they're taking them too. I mean come on,,,even the most ardent proponets of the enhanced features can_not_argue the merits of that hideous TRP Operator.
I mean really, that thing is so ugly, and sooo aptly named - - Operator - - just like the lyrics from the song by Sade- - "Smooth Operator"
"Coast to coast, LA to Chicago" <-- sounds catchy, but think about it.
The saddest part here, is that to get a normal 1911 like Crawler did, you almost have to pay a premium. IIRC, his ran a bit over $600.00. Now, I'm sitting here looking at my Kimber (yes, I'm a closet hickey-dooer) and thinking,,,, I paid ~ $700.00 for it, and to turn it into a "normal" looking 1911 would take about $200.00. :banghead:
Guess, I'm just gettin' old....course I have been known to say lately I'm glad I'm old and gonna die soon..
Ain't that I mind the froohickeys - doo dads as much as it's the extreme that they're taking them too. I mean come on,,,even the most ardent proponets of the enhanced features can_not_argue the merits of that hideous TRP Operator.
I mean really, that thing is so ugly, and sooo aptly named - - Operator - - just like the lyrics from the song by Sade- - "Smooth Operator"
"Coast to coast, LA to Chicago" <-- sounds catchy, but think about it.
The saddest part here, is that to get a normal 1911 like Crawler did, you almost have to pay a premium. IIRC, his ran a bit over $600.00. Now, I'm sitting here looking at my Kimber (yes, I'm a closet hickey-dooer) and thinking,,,, I paid ~ $700.00 for it, and to turn it into a "normal" looking 1911 would take about $200.00. :banghead:
Nightcrawler
Member
You know, that's what attracted me to the Colt. I was hesitant to get a 1911 at first. I have this thing where I like having guns that not everybody has, and durn near everybody has a 1911.
But how many people are buying Colts anymore? And with spur hammers and the original lines? That configuration made it that much more appealing to me. There was a like new in box Springfield Mil Spec next to it that I could've bought for $160 less...yet I went for the one with the Horsey on it. *shrug*
But yeah. A "classic" looking 1911 is so uncommon these days as to appeal to me. A lot of people that buy Mil-Specs do so intending to customize them, and they make a good platform for that.
I don't know. Maybe I payed that $160 extra for the name, but I'm more than happy with the Colt. And it rattles like a good 1911 should.
But how many people are buying Colts anymore? And with spur hammers and the original lines? That configuration made it that much more appealing to me. There was a like new in box Springfield Mil Spec next to it that I could've bought for $160 less...yet I went for the one with the Horsey on it. *shrug*
But yeah. A "classic" looking 1911 is so uncommon these days as to appeal to me. A lot of people that buy Mil-Specs do so intending to customize them, and they make a good platform for that.
I don't know. Maybe I payed that $160 extra for the name, but I'm more than happy with the Colt. And it rattles like a good 1911 should.
I have a Kimber Custom Defender II. It has a black frame and a stainless slide. It also has a Beavertail and a bobbed hammer. Yesterday, at the range, I managed to shoot a one-hole 8 round group with it at 20 yards.Some people may not like the looks of my Kimber but I don't think a BG would notice. I can shoot this gun better than any gun I've ever owned and I don't really care what anybody thinks of it's looks. Different strokes for different folks.
P.S. I was using WWB Valuepack ammo.
P.S. I was using WWB Valuepack ammo.
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
Isn't it a little wierd for people to get so wound up over stuff that isn't even on their gun?
I've never had any use for the high thumbs technique either, but it isn't like people are forcing me to use it instead of the Weaver or Modern isosceles.
I've never had any use for the high thumbs technique either, but it isn't like people are forcing me to use it instead of the Weaver or Modern isosceles.
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