German small arms of WW2

[VG]

Yea, and it's a bolt action by the way. I find it ironic that the German armed forces' standard issue battle rifle was still a bolt action. They were so far ahead of everyone else in nearly all other types of weaponry. What on Earth were they thinking?

They were thinking the same as almost everyone else. The United States Marine Corps conducted a service rifle evaluation in December of 1940. Tested were the M1903 Springfield, Garand, Johnson, and a Winchester semiauto. The winner was - drum roll since it's the USMC's Birthday - the M1903 Springfield.

The Marine Corps and the Germans and just about every military outside the U.S. Army, were concerned about the mechanical reliability of a semiautomatic, and the possibility of prodigal use of ammunition.

If one looks at the status of American aircraft, armor, and other war weapons in 1937, it is even more impressive that the Army (ranked 14th in size in the world) would have taken the step of standardizing on the Garand in that year. Many armies had pursued the concept since WWI, including France and Germany.

 

[Badger Arms]

BTW, if the German order of battle was so danged advanced, refresh my memory: "Wer hat der Krieg gewonnen?"

I didn't mean to suggest that they were more advanced, only different and effective. Yes, they were very effective. The fact that they didn't win the war speaks more to the low place infantry weapons and organizational structure played in Germany's strategic success.

The FG42 was designed to fill a VERY narrow niche -- it was truly a specialists weapon. Unlike the M14, it was never intended to be a main battle rifle, squad automatic weapon, etc. etc. etc., for the whole German army.

Well, that was part of the problem, it was designed for the Air Force. The Air Force saw that they needed immediate firepower on the order of what a Machinegun would provide when they hit the ground. It was, indeed, intended to replace the Machinegun, Battle Rifle, and Submachinegun in many of their employments. The Army didn't ask for, nor did they want or get the gun and it was uncontrollable in full-auto and loud at any rate. The FG-42 was still an excellent weapon given its limitations and introduced many concepts used on future weapons, the M-60 being one.

 

[telewinz]

Surely you don't mean to suggest that the SVT40 was superior to the Garand in any way shape or form! The Germans also stamped dozens of captured types of pistols, rifles, and SMG's and used them as their own. They were never able to capture significant American arms to do so with. I'd bet they had a boatload of French small arms... wait, nevermind.

No but like the M1 carbine, the SVT40 was POPULAR and sought after by German COMBAT troops long before it was issued by the German quartermasters. Thats a pretty high complement by any standard. The SVT40 would fire in a drenching rain without any special lubrication unlike the Garand. Plus the SVT40's rear sight would hold "zero", something that troubled the Garand till late in the war.

 

[Tamara]

The Germans respected the SVT40 so much that they restamped and proofed captured rifles and issued them to their own troops, something they never did with the M1 Garand

Sure they did, as the Selbstladegewehr 251(a). Also, see the Japanese Rifle Type 5.

 

[VG]

Tamara, I believe the Germans assigned this nomenclature to captured Garand rifles. I don't know of any efforts to manufacture them by the Germans?

The M1 Carbine was called the "Selbstladekarabiner 455(a)".

On a related historical trivia note, at: http://www.dsv-clan.de/1024/Waffen.html

"Es hatte auch ein weiteres funktionelles Problem: Wenn die letzte der acht Patronen abgefeuert war, wurde ein relativ deutlich vernehmbares Geräusch aus dem Behälter ausgeworfen, was einem in der Nähe befindlichen Feind ankündigte, dass das Gewehr des Schützen leer geschossen war, was gelegentlich dramatische Folgen hatte."

My German is pretty rusty but I roughly translated this to:

"...It had another functional problem: when the last of the eight rounds was discharged, the clear sound of the clip being ejected announced to nearby enemy that the weapon was shot dry, and occasionally dramatic events followed."

 

[Nathanael_Greene]

"Wer hat der Krieg gewonnen?"

Definite article, masculine, accusative: Wer hat den Krieg gewonnen?

(Talk about splitting hairs.)

 

[Mike Irwin]

Wer die hell you talking about?

 

[Bart Noir]

"...It had another functional problem: when the last of the eight rounds was discharged, the clear sound of the clip being ejected announced to nearby enemy that the weapon was shot dry, and occasionally dramatic events followed."

I call that a myth and a pile of hooey. The persons who believe that "ping" could be detected have no concept of how loud a battle is. And even if Fritz Huninthesun could hear that Private Parts just ran his rifle empty, what about the big guy with the BAR next to him?

Bart Noir

 

[VG]

I posted it as an example of mythology, not a statement of fact. Just work in the pits at the next Garand Match and you'll know the reality.

 

[telewinz]

I stand corrected

Both the M-1 Garand and the M-1 carbine were used in some places by German units, particularly garrison troops. The Garand was known as the 7.62 mm Selbstladegewehr 251(a) and the carbine was known as the Selbstladekarabiner 455(a). the fact that the German Army bothered to slap official designations on the guns shows that they were captured in large enough numbers to allow them to be put to some use.

Sure they did, as the Selbstladegewehr 251(a). Also, see the Japanese Rifle Type 5.

I'm sure they used small quantities of American shotguns too but nowhere near the number of SVT's and nowhere is it stated that the Garand was popular with German COMBAT troops. The M1 Carbine is the exception, it was highly regarded by German COMBAT troops and was quite popular.