Glock or S&W 3rd Gen?

[REAPER4206969]

If you're going .40 S&W or .45 ACP, then S&W M&P beats Glock.

I disagree. While the M&P is certainly a fine pistol, the .40 Glock's get a bad internet rap due to their astronomical use by damn near everyone. If you fielded any firearm in those numbers you would see similar issues. Here is a broken 19 BTW.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1078062

 

[rscalzo]

in fact, they probably have already stopped making them.

They stopped years ago although they would do special order production runs. We started using the S&W 659 and several varients in 9mm and 40S&W. They were built like tanks (except the 669 for some reason). They will last forever. I can't think of any part that required replacement outside of physical damage. Even magazines are still in use, fully loaded after more than 25 years. You can't kill them.

I'd go for the glock 17 because its cheap to shoot

9mm is cheaper to shoot in a Glock than a 5906?????????

Plus, you probably won't have the .40 caliber kaboom thing happen in 9mm due to the glock's chamber design

More internet lore. We have thousands upon thousands of 40S&W rounds through our departmental M23's without any such problem. the one problem we did have was due to the use of a ultrasonic cleaner without removing the firing pin assembly.

I also frequent a popular local club that runs Steel Challenge and IDPA matches almost weekly. Many use the Glocks in 40S&W without incident. There are reasons for problems. The chamber design isn't one of them is common sense and decent ammo, reloaded or factory is used.

 

[Carter]

9mm is cheaper to shoot in a Glock than a 5906?????????

...How would you think that about my comment? My preference was glock, the model was 17. Thus, the glock 17 is cheaper to shoot than the glock 22 (.40 cal).

 

[valorius]

I disagree. While the M&P is certainly a fine pistol, the .40 Glock's get a bad internet rap due to their astronomical use by damn near everyone. If you fielded any firearm in those numbers you would see similar issues. Here is a broken 19 BTW.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1078062

There are some pistols out there that won't have the KB issues the Glocks have in .40, ever, because they have fully supported chambers. The HK USP is a prime example.

 

[valorius]

After reading your posts for awhile, you have a strange idea of firearm safety. You always advocate equipment changes to solve blatant training issues.

I simply recognize that people are human and fail-able, and that even well trained people do extremely stupid things. Even elite soldiers have ND's with their firearms. People get tired, or complacent, or inattentive, or contemptive, and any one of those things can come back to bite you. The world is full of 9 fingered shop teachers, after all.

If your name is jesus, you can carry anything you want. Anyone else, they should be thinking about the 99.999999999% of their firearms life that wont be spent pulling the gun in a moment of immediate need, not the .00000000001% of the time that it MIGHT.

By the way, the US Military also likes equipment changes to increase capability as well, just like i do. I probably think like this because i'm an ex-soldier, and a product of that mindset. It seems to work for the US military, and so far, it's worked just fine for me too.

At any rate, magazine safeties avert ND's. Manual safeties also avert ND's. They can also save your life if your weapon is ever wrestled away from you. It's just a fact. Why do you think S&W puts them on there to begin with?

 

[REAPER4206969]

There are some pistols out there that won't have the KB issues the Glocks have in .40, ever, because they have fully supported chambers.

Your lack of technical firearms knowledge is showing.

 

[valorius]

You clearly have not seen the chamber of a HK USP .40.

Until you do, you should refrain from insulting others firearms knowledge troop.

And it's not the only one with a fully supported chamber either. Here is the chamber of a CZ-40:



Wow, look at that.

 

[ugaarguy]

The chamber design isn't one of them is common sense and decent ammo, reloaded or factory is used.

You should tell that to the engineers at Speer, and those at every other company which publishes reloading manuals. Unsupported chambers in any high pressure cartridge which lacks a serious case web most certainly are a problem.

To the OP, I voted 5906 because you already have a 6906. Keeping the manual of arms the same has serious advantages. If you'd told us you already a Glock 27, I'd have voted for the Glock 22, etc. Magazine compatibility from the larger S&Ws into the smaller twin column mag guns applies there just as it does to Glocks. Last, the 5906 is one heavy pistol. I'd opt for the Aluminum frame 5903 if it's available.

 

[REAPER4206969]

You clearly have not seen the chamber of a HK USP .40.

I own a USP40.

Until you do, you should refrain from insulting others firearms knowledge troop.

Chamber support is of no significance. The only time it comes into play is when out of spec ammunition is used. All firearms can, and will experience a catastrophic failure when firing improper ammunition.

 

[ugaarguy]

Speer .40 S&W Warning

SAFETY NOTICE​

Some pistols chambered for the 40 S&W cartridge may not provide complete support of the case head. If this condition exists, normal pressure loads such as those shown here can cause the case wall to bulge or rupture at the unsupported point. Contact your firearm manufacturer to determine if your pistol completely supports the case head, or ask a gunsmith to inspect your pistol before using it with ANY ammunition. It is the gun owner's responsibility to know his firearm and its capabilities and limitations.

- Speer Reloading Manual Rifle and Pistol, Number 13, p.544 (underline emphasis mine).

 

[carbuncle]

Thanks for everyone's input, I was just curious to see which way the wind blew with people on this topic.

I'm very familiar with both options, I've shot extensively with the G26, G30, G23, 5906 and 6906 and I think that it's a win-win whichever I choose. I threw the .40 in there because I'm seeing a lot of LE trade-in 4006s for a good price on GB, but since I restarted my collection with a 9mm and I just found out I am going to be a father next year I think I'll stick with one caliber for now (once we start remodeling the office into the nursery and doing all the other stuff that's coming the ammo budget is going to get squeezed real tight).

One thing I remember about the 5906 was the low recoil and solid accuracy, which I think my wife would appreciate when I get her into a class with me. Sad story: I had special-ordered a brand new 5906 when they were still being manufactured and foolishly sold it later.

Funny story: last Christmas I got a card from a ragingly liberal relative with $50 in it, I used it to join the GSSF on spec, figuring that the discount (and the irony) was worth it. I'm kind of feeling like I should buy the Glock since I like them OK and it's a great price on a new, quality pistol, and I'm probably not going to renew the membership but...I actually want another 5906.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

There are some pistols out there that won't have the KB issues the Glocks have in .40, ever, because they have fully supported chambers.

the chamber in my EMP40 is less supported than glock's 40cals. just saw an EMP40 kaboom post on 1911 forum too. what blew it up was the owner using super highpressure 40cal ammo that came with a warning not use is it in unsupported chambers, which he disregarded.

however, glock kabooms are generally caused by uncle bubba reloading 40cal shells for the 10th time. factory ammo loaded to SAAMI specs will not blow up a glock. it's not a failing of the glock design. in fact, the unsupported chamber is one of the reasons their so reliable.

 

[REAPER4206969]

 

[Nushif]

The question is too subjective for me to vote. Really, both designs are top-notch and completely reliable, but both have their pros and cons, too. I think that whichever one fits you the best and performs most accurately in your hands is the correct choice

Pretty much dead on there.

All the choices are some pretty damn cool pistols.

 

[valorius]

Chamber support is of no significance. The only time it comes into play is when out of spec ammunition is used. All firearms can, and will experience a catastrophic failure when firing improper ammunition.

All cars will eventually lose control in a high speed curve if they go fast enough too....but some are much better at not spinning out than others.

Likewise, some guns will withstand a good deal more pressure than others...because they've got way more chamber support than others.

PS: A picture without context is meaningless.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

^^the point of the HK pic illustrates that pistols with full chamber support like "kaboom" too from out of spec ammo.

 

[valorius]

That barrel doesn't look KB'ed to me at all in that pic. For all i know the thing got ran over by an armored personnel carrier.

Got some kind of link to the story that goes with that pic?

however, glock kabooms are generally caused by uncle bubba reloading 40cal shells for the 10th time. factory ammo loaded to SAAMI specs will not blow up a glock. it's not a failing of the glock design. in fact, the unsupported chamber is one of the reasons their so reliable.

SAAMI pressure specs are like weak cousins to CIP. So i guess shooting CIP rated ammo is out of the question in your Glocks then?

Did you see this from a previous post in this thread:

" Speer .40 S&W Warning

Quote:

SAFETY NOTICE

Some pistols chambered for the 40 S&W cartridge may not provide complete support of the case head. If this condition exists, normal pressure loads such as those shown here can cause the case wall to bulge or rupture at the unsupported point. Contact your firearm manufacturer to determine if your pistol completely supports the case head, or ask a gunsmith to inspect your pistol before using it with ANY ammunition. It is the gun owner's responsibility to know his firearm and its capabilities and limitations. "

Sounds like speer has a differing opinion.

PS: My CIP rated P7 has a completely supported chamber, and it is one of the most reliable autoloaders ever devised. You can have both, you know.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

this is the shell from the EMP40 "kaboom" i referenced earlier. the user disregarded the manufacture (Buffalo Bore) warning about using it in unsupported chambers:

EMP40 on the left/HK USP 40 on the right:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=257261&page=3

 

[valorius]

Sounds like a good reason not to buy an EMP40 (or a glock .40) to me.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

SAAMI pressure specs are like weak cousins to CIP. So i guess shooting CIP rated ammo is out of the question in your Glocks then?

not sure what the abbreviation "CIP" stands for, but 9mm glocks are design around NATO/European 9mm specs which is hotter than USA SAAMI standard pressure specs. the 40cal glocks are designed around SAAMI specs.

although there is no "+P" 40cal, buffalo bore lists their 40cal as such because they load it super hot--that's what caused the case failure in the unsupported EMP in the pics i posted above.

Sounds like a good reason not to buy an EMP40 (or a glock .40) to me.

see my above explanation. all other ammo (SAAMI spec) is good to go in the EMP40 and Glock 40cals.


(do you think the Glock 23 would be the most popular police pistol in america if it had a "design flaw" that caused explosions? )

 

[valorius]

CIP is the euro rating for ammunition, and it is typically a good deal hotter than SAAMI.

In the U.S., voluntary pressure standards for rifle cartridges are set by SAAMI, a member of ANSI. Most other countries in the world follow the standards of Europe's CIP (Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives or Permanent International Commission for the Proof of Small-arms, sometimes referred to as the International Proof Commission).

http://kwk.us/pressures.html

Typically, European ammo is loaded significantly hotter than US ammo.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

^^ i see. thanx for the clarification.

yep those are the same euro specs for 9mm i referenced in post #45, just didn't recognize the abbreviation.

 

[valorius]

No problem.

I think the Glock 23 is "the most popular police pistol in america" (if indeed it is) because of two things. 1) Cost (and this is by far your #1 reason), 2) Trend.

I don't think a Glock 23 is even 1% better as a service sidearm than a Glock 17, or a Sig 226, or whatever other modern semiauto service pistol you want to name, in any of the popular calibers.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

cost certainly is a factor. glocks are the most popular pistols in the world because they are reliable, durable, low cost, and parts are cheaper than dirt.

that certainly doesn't mean they're for everyone though.

i like the g17 better too. i'm really not a huge 40cal fan, but i do have an EMP40 which is more pleasant to shoot than most 40cals. exceptionally accurate as well.

at the same time, the glock 40cals are great combat weapons. LE like the FBI wouldn't use them if they blew up in your hand for no reason.

 

[SwampWolf]

I voted for the Smith pistol because that's the gun I've put thousands of rounds through (much of them during le qualification courses of fire) without incident. Of course, I'm aware that most Glock shooters can say the same thing. Though extreme reliability is the foremost requirement of any weapon being employed for self-defense, other factors are important too; one of them being how a particular firearm handles for a particular shooter. And that is one subjective element the op and/or his wife will have to answer for themselves.