Got my Remington! Antiquing question...

[jamesbeat]

Thanks to recommendations by folks here, I decided on an 1858 as my first cap & ball revolver.
It arrived today (very fast delivery from Cabelas) and I'm extremely pleased with it

It's a Pietta. I've read some bad things about Pietta quality in the past, and when I lived in the UK I had a couple of 1851's that were Pietta made that were a little lacking.
My 1851's were blank firing replicas, and I always assumed that maybe they didn't bother so much with quality control with those as they did with the working models.

Whatever the explanation, I have to say that my 1858 is a different animal altogether.
Fit and finish are superb. If anything, this gun may be too tight as I have found it quite difficult to get the cylinder back in after removing it. If I was Clint Eastwood in 'Pale Rider', I'd have been shot while I was fumbling with it.
The trigger is quite heavy, but it's very smooth. I might give the contact surfaces the once over with an 8000 grit stone when I have the time.

The finish is flawless. I've never really liked the finish on these repros because it seems too 'modern' to me.
I know opinion is divided on this, but I like 'old' guns to look old. The way I see it is that in an ideal world, I'd buy an original pistol and shoot it.
Obviously, if I had spent that kind of money on an antique I would feel uncomfortable shooting it, so a modern repro that looks like it's an antique is the next best thing.

My plan was to strip the bluing and refinish the gun with cold blue.
I've never had much luck with cold blue.
I've used it to touch up my deactivated guns in the past, and it seems that no matter how well you oil it, it always goes brown eventually.
I thought this might be good for the finish that I want on my Remington. It would start off blue as it was originally intended, but would rapidly age to brown like the bluing does on old guns.
The thing is, it happens differently on different steels, and when I tried it on one of my 1851's it went black and stayed black, even though I deliberately didn't oil it.

A lot of people use plum brown to get this effect, but from what I've seen it's a bit too 'plum' and not enough 'brown' for my liking, plus I live in an apartment and I hear that browning is best done outside.

I've also seen a technique where you use cold blue and then dip the metal straight into household bleach. It apparently turns brown instantly, but I've only seen it used on knife blades:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632510

This seems to be the kind of thing I'm after, but I'm not sure how the steel on the 1858 will react. Has anyone tried this?

Also, I was going to use naval jelly to strip the blue, but I have read that it imparts a slight phosphate finish to the steel which stops cold blue from working properly. Any truth in that?

 

[TomADC]

I used a Wonder Blue kit on the barrel of my Zouve, check out the site and watch the video's. I'm happy with the finish I got.
http://www.bluewonder.us/

 

[Elbert P . Suggins]

Wrap your pistol in a towel soaked in vinegar. Let sit for 10-15 minutes and you will have removed the bluing in the high areas where normal wear over time would take it off anyway. Some bluing will remain in recessed areas which looks quite original. Protect the insides, cylinder bores, and inside the barrel with bore butter and olive oil and take it with you into the shower stall and let it steam up and let it dry naturally. Might have to do this a couple of times until you get the right aging. Take any tool with a edge and rap the grips as often as it takes to get the correct wear and tear that looks good. Do this also to the frame, cylinder and the outside of the barrel. You will be surprised at how close you can come to replicating the aging of a real Remington or Colt. When you are done ask a few that know their guns how old it is especially if you use a Uberti because the information is under the loading handle and you will be surprised how many will tell you it must be 150 years old.

 

[madcratebuilder]

+1 on EP Suggins trick. It does work well. As far as navel jelly effecting cold blue, it has not on any I have done. When I'm after a antique look I well even oil parts of the steel before I apply the cold blue.

 

[jamesbeat]

Thanks guys, but simulated holster wear is really only half of the effect I'm after.
I understand that a lot of guys want a worn-looking gun to fit in with a CAS costume or similar, but I want the gun to look like an actual antique ie. what a gun made in 1860 would look like in 2009.
These old guns definitely have holster wear, but most of the time the bluing that does remain has turned brown with age.
Here are some photos of real antiques to better demonstrate what I mean:







See how the blue has changed to brown?
Maybe browning solution is the way to go, coupled with the 'holster wear' technique EP Suggins suggests?

I'd also like to defarb the gun, but I'm concerned that the stamping is quite deep and filing it away might distort the barrel flats too much.
I was thinking that maybe the heavy pitting that can be obtained by the cold blue/bleach process could be done locally in the defarbed areas to disguise that somewhat.
I'm not trying to make a fake antique to fool anyone, but I really like the idea of having a gun that looks almost like a battlefield relic, but is as mechanically sound and accurate as a brand new gun.

 

[arcticap]

Burnishing is one way to defarb a revolver as described in the following thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=363628&highlight=burnishing

Here's a few previous threads of many with info. about debluing and antiquing:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=276371&highlight=torch

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=264033

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5005073#post5005073

THR has an extensive database that can be accessed through the advanced search function found at the top of every page. Click on it, then "advanced search" and "black powder shooting" to obtain the most specific results.

 

[Olmontanaboy]

The finish is flawless. I've never really liked the finish on these repros because it seems too 'modern' to me.
I know opinion is divided on this, but I like 'old' guns to look old.

I would think if you wanted it to look like a original 150 year old+ the first thing you would have to do is remove all the modern lawyer approved stampings. That said I've yet to see an purposely antiqued firearm that looked like anything other than what it was "Sorta like stone-washed jeans". During the time period that these weapons were actively carried and used they would have had field use wear (holster and hard use) and not look like an 150 year old firearm looks like today (time deteriouration of the finish) I'm not trying to sound like a smartass and it's it's your gun to do with what you want. But a well used new revolver gets it's own character, from shooting, cleaning, exposure to the elements and holster wear. Every mark and area of finish wear a memory of your time spent with that firearm. Anyway it's just one mans opinion and not much else

 

[jamesbeat]

Arcticap, thanks for the links on debluing, but I already found those (I did use the search function...) I know how to deblue, the part I'm stuck on is getting the brown colour that old bluing changes to over time.
I guess I need to look more into the browning solutions that are available. I wanted to avoid them if at all possible because of the unpleasant application process and the fact that they often leave a purplish tone.
I did read somewhere that you could brown components by coating them in salt water, leaving them in a jar full of damp rags and then boiling them.
This sounds to me like the old rust bluing process, which I believe initially turns the metal brown.
Maybe I should explore that avenue.

Thanks for the link on burnishing, that definitely seems to be a better way of going about removing the marks. I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it myself :banghead:

Olmontanaboy, I totally understand what you are saying.
It's hard to explain, but I guess from seeing photos of originals for so long has sorta programmed my brain to think that these guns should look 150+ years old. I like the idea of owning and shooting an antique, but money and common sense prevent me doing so.

 

[JamesKelly]

JamesBeat your two antiques show something interesting. The first one, pretty much uniformly brown, probably has a frame which has been forged of wrought iron, then machined. Only way I know to tell is to remove the grips & see if the inside outline of the grip frame has been machined (wrought iron) or has a fuzzy as-cast surface.

That second gun very clearly has a malleable iron frame. You can see the casting shrink. Originally it was inside a heavy area of the casting. Now it shows since the left recoil shield was machined away in the conversion process.

Long-winded way to say, did you notice the steel barrel & cylinder largely retained their blue? While the malleable cast iron frame turned brown.

I think the US Ordnance Dept asked Remington to go back to wrought iron, it is not clear if they ever did. Back around 1965 Winchester decided to Save Money by going from a forged to a malleable iron frame on the Model '94. They had to do something wierd to get a more-or-less matching blue on barrel and frames. Some years later the beancounters lost ground & they went back to a steel frame.

Sooo . . . if you really want to be authentic in a Civil War (our 19th, not your 17th century) period Remington your frame ought to be brown, with some blue remaining on barrel, cylinder, hammer & trigger. Of course, then people would comment on things not matching & obviously you would have done it wrong.

 

[jamesbeat]

That's interesting, I had noticed that and assumed that different grades of steel were used for the barrels and the frames. I didn't know about the frames being made of wrought iron though, that would certainly explain it.
It's the brown look of the wrought iron that says 'old gun' to me.
Just to clarify, the guns in the photos don't belong to me, I was just demonstrating what I was talking about.

 

[arcticap]

Instructions from the internet may not always be complete or reliable, so here's a reference book about Browning.

"Firearms Bluing & Browning" by R.H. Angler

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(u5...catId=4&subId=38&styleId=135&partNum=BOOK-FBB

Browning Reagent & Degreaser by Laurel Mountain Forge

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(u5...atId=5&subId=65&styleId=221&partNum=LMF-BROWN

PDF Instructions for the LMF Browning Reagent:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/pdfs/LMF-Brown-Instructions.pdf

French Grey methods:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=3353.0

 

[mykeal]

I'm glad arcticap published the LMF and french gray links. I think those are your two best options for the finish you want. Keep in mind that patience is the best way to get a true antique finish. Expecting to get that result overnight with a one or two step process is asking too much. You may need to do the french gray and let it age for a few weeks; I know the LMF browning with some judicious 0000 steel wool and aging will get you there but it's not quick. LMF is a high humidity process, takes a number of applications (at least 3; the first one or two will look terrible and you'll be sure you messed it up) but no nasty fumes or heat required. If you card vigorously after each application and then polish carefully with the 0000 steel wool you'll see the color come out slowly. Once you've gotten the finish lightly oil or wax to keep it there.