Grease Those AR's

[pdowg881]

I hear such a wide range of opinions regarding ar reliability. Is a lot of this just from it's original problems and it's still being circulated? Is it because different brands are less reliable? Is it because people don't take care of them correctly? It seems to me that if they were as bad of some people sound they would've been replaced a long time ago. I've always wanted one, and have shot some m16 whose owner used wd-40 as a lube (a big no-no. He also lubes most of his auto's with wd) and they worked fine.

 

[USMC Tanker]

Just like any other weapon, if you operate it within the parameters it was designed for, it will function properly.

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

[QUOTEIf I can get away with treating an AR15 like that and have it still work, I swear I will buy one instead of a SIG556.
][/QUOTE]

You can...

Like Exposure said, 500 rds is nothing.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

Yeah, I've done close to 2000 rounds in 2 days without any maintenance in my AR15's without any kind of malfunctions...

I am sure it would have kept going just fine. I had no reason to believe otherwise, but it was dirty when I cleaned it... but what do you expect from any gun w/ 2000 rounds between cleanings??

I would trust any well built AR15 to run fine for at least a couple thousand rounds between cleanings, but cleaning your weapon is always a good practice.

 

[jrhines]

I prefer light grease to oil on my ARs, because it stays where you put it and doesn't burn off as quickly. But oil works fine, too. You just have to use something, and be generous with it. Use salad oil, used motor oil, Astro-Glide, whatever. Just keep the BCG wet with something.

My ARs have all run 1-2k rounds with no PM. I'd consider 1k in one day, without malfunctions, to be the minimum standard for reliability.

- Chris

 

[MechAg94]

I guess I haven't looked much. I just wipe down with some Hoppes gun oil and let is soak in before wiping off.

My Armalite worked well once I got it broke in, got better magazines, and learned not to overlube it. Overlubing gets it gunked up. But always if it worked on the first magazine it would work on the 3rd or 4th or 5th.

 

[blackhawk2000]

Pics of my dirty AR:
http://www.freewebs.com/heads_up_racing/dirtyar.htm

Mag is inserted backwards in first pic due to a post long ago. I don't remember exact round count, but last cleaning was before a 1K, 1 day class, and a few months of matches, so around 1500-2000 rds. I always run it wet. Always. CLP dripping wet. Only 2-3imes, it had FTExtract was when hot, and dry.

Much said about the AR is pure internet/gunshop BS. And most of the real problems are from WECSOG* gunsmiths, using el-cheapo parts.

*Wyle E. Coyote School Of Gunsmithing


But what do I know, I made a Glock rust.

 

[sacp81170a]

Use salad oil, used motor oil, Astro-Glide, whatever. Just keep the BCG wet with something.

LOL. My first Flight Chief when I was in Air Force Security, MSgt Don Hamilton, was a Vietnam vet. He was at Ton Son Nhut during Tet in '68. He told me that at one time they were using peanut oil to lube their M-16's. Said it worked fine, but they started getting hungry after the oil heated up enough for them to smell it.

(5.56 stir fry... )

 

[Evil Monkey]

Man this is funny.

Here's what forum member Hypnogator said in this thread.
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=304512

A long time ago, in an Army post far far away, in Basic I was always getting yelled at for using too much LSA in my M-16. The night we had night-fire qualification, it was in freezing rain. About half my platoon used my M-16 because it was the only one that didn't jam up.

So if you don't use lube in freezing rain, you're AR15/M16 will malfunction? That's so sad. That's just so messed up. I'm pretty sure the AK's, SIG550's, FNC's, and Galil's would've worked fine in the same environment without any lube.

 

[Zak Smith]

Is a lot of this just from it's original problems and it's still being circulated? Is it because different brands are less reliable? Is it because people don't take care of them correctly?

Parts made incorrectly, parts "copied" incorrectly, bad quality parts, incomplete and/or wrong assembly. As a start:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=243382

 

[Jeremy2171]

Good thing I'm not in a sand chamber test....I'm in the Iraqi desert....

I run my weapons dry (2-3 drops of CLP at most) and will not allow ANY of my weapons to get "wet". This includes the M249, M240, M2 50cal, Mk19 GL. 2-3 drops of CLP is all they get.

Weapons stoppages= "0"

Just put 700 rounds out Saturday with an M4...stoppages = "0". Wasn't even that dirty afterwards.

If the only reason a rifle worked in the freezing rain was because of LSA then I'd say there was something wrong with the other rifles! Of course that episode happened to Soldiers in "Basic" training...who knows what condition the rifles or recruits were in.

 

[Onmilo]

"AstroGlide"!!??

 

[SpeedAKL]

I typically don't use CLP to lube my AR; I have some decent gun grease which seems to do the job well. Granted, I haven't been through any tac courses running thousands of rounds through the thing, but it's never had a problem during long days at the range.

 

[Obiwan]

Where is Pat Rogers and his tube of Vagisil when we need him!

Sand in the chamber will stop almost any weapon cold...wet , dry or otherwise

So you popped off a whopping 700 rounds with minimal lube.....does that mean the weapon would have run worse with more lube...I don't think so

When I do see guns go down...short of a major mechanical issue...a squirt of lube through the gas holes in the bolt ususally gets them running again

So why is that I wonder???

Jeff and Zack are both right...well built guns...and well maintained guns run well until/unless something breaks....but they like their lube

Do you guys also stop using oil in your vehicles in the desert?

 

[Jeremy2171]

So you popped off a whopping 700 rounds with minimal lube.....does that mean the weapon would have run worse with more lube...I don't think so

Yeah, you seemed to have missed the dirt devil that came over us as we had finished shooting. "IF" I allowed lube on the weapons as you suggest the dust would have been stuck inside them like mud. When they are "dry" the dirt/dust does not stick. So "yes" it WOULD have run worse or maybe even not at all if that dust devil had come by a little sooner while/before we started shooting.

When I do see guns go down...short of a major mechanical issue...a squirt of lube through the gas holes in the bolt ususally gets them running again

So why is that I wonder???

Ahhhh..the curall for everything..."MORE LUBE"...lol

Funny range story...one of the new guys was having trouble with an M249 jamming. So another new NCO came over and squirted a ton of CLP into the SAW to "fix" it(in Iraq mind you). I saw this and asked ***??? They explained the problem them the gunner shot it again and it jammed again and the NCO started to pour MORE CLP into it....thats when I stopped them and reached down and fired the weapon correctly without "milking" the trigger like the gunner did. The weapon was running perfectly and did not need CLP, it needed proper trigger manipulation. The gunner and NCO got a good lesson that day as they stripped the weapon and removed the CLP from it...the gunner however took him several washings to get all the CLP from his firing hand after it dripped down through weapon onto the grip. Oh did I mention it was a muddy sandy goo?

Jeff and Zack are both right...well built guns...and well maintained guns run well until/unless something breaks....but they like their lube

Do you guys also stop using oil in your vehicles in the desert?

Ummm, the last I checked an engine was a sealed system with a filter to keep bad things like sand away from the vitals....not so with an open bolt MG.

So if you would like to come over here and teach us all that we need more lube we'd certainly appreciate it.

 

[Zak Smith]

I hesitate to even mention this because AR's do run better with an appropriate amount of good lube. However. I have a 12" SBR that I normally run with a can. As suppressor shooters know, this blows the action dry of lube and accelerates carbon fouling-- things are pretty much bone dry after 60-100 rounds. Even in this condition, the SBR runs reliably and does not malfunction. I have run my 17" comp-tac upper under the same conditions. I don't think this refutes the need for lube, but it does underscore the importance of having an upper built properly from the correct parts.

 

[El Tejon]

I run my ARs wet but the only sand around here is 2 hours north on the beach.

I still think a lot of it has to do with how well the parts fit together. All of the ARs that I have seen that have problems are Frankenbuffet guns. I don't think lube is (always) the controlling factor.

 

[Jeff White]

Wet doesn't necessarily mean dripping....

You have to have the right amount of lube in the right places. To some people, the definition of wet means lube dripping off of the weapon. Some people think wet means that the outside surface of the weapon is coated to prevent rust.

I hear all the time about miracle dry lubes, or running no lube at all especially in the desert. On one NTC rotation I did, they actually issued us a spray silicone lube to try. It didn't work very well. The key part of an AR/M16 that needs the lube is inside the bolt carrier where the bolt rides. This area is similar to the piston in a reciprocating engine. There has to be a coating of lube on that part of the carrier. Think cylinder wall in an engine. How do you get the lube there without breaking down the bolt carrier group? Pull the charging handle back and put some lube on the bolt where it protrudes from the front of the carrier, then work the action a few times. Squirt a couple drops of lube through the exhaust holes in the bolt carrier. Keep the dust cover closed. Pat Rogers teaches this, but I first learned the lesson in BCT in 74 from SSG Stephen Briggs. When you are done shooting, reach up with either hand and close the dust cover. You would be surprised by how much crud you'll keep from entering inside your weapon by doing that. Another tip, don't let dust, dirt and mud accumulate on the outside surfaces of your weapon. Carry a rag and wipe it down. Wrap it in something if you're in a sandstorm. I hate to say this, but every automatic weapon from the M1 to the AK will fail when you fill the inside with dirt, mud sand and crud.

This isn't rocket science. I don't why it's so hard for so many people. Everyone has their own homegrown ideas about how to fix the problem. Squirting the action full of lube will work, it'll get lube everywhere it needs to be. But lets be a little sensible. In dusty conditions you don't want lube dripping anywhere on the outside of your weapon. Lube on the locking lugs, and lube on the inside of the bolt carrier is what is needed. Wet doesn't necessarily mean dripping wet. Wet means lube where it is supposed to be. I've seen a lot of people try to run M16s and ARs dry. I had an officer show up for a class, and take a brand new 6520 out of the box, pull the little cardboard cylinder out of the bore, and walk up to the line to shoot. Good parts in a good upper didn't help for long. These weapons need lubrication to function. A few squirts of CLP into that officer's weapon and it was good.

Jeff

 

[alucard0822]

A cheaply/crappily built AR is probably the #1 reason for stoppages I have seen, poor stakes on the bolt key, binding buffer, too loose or too tight tolerances in random areas. A good AR is less suceptable to stoppages, and less tempermental with lubing and maintenence procedures (or lack therof)

I have also seen/experienced a lot of stoppages from crappy ammo, A thousand rounds worth of british ss109, and some adcom come to mind

So IMO a good quality AR with good ammo will give you better reliability, and probably even more so than an el cheapo when "inventive" maintenence techniques are being used.

I personally use 3 parts Mobil 1 10w-30 to 1 part marvel mystery oil, basically a gallon of lube for $15 that can't be beat, I basically wipe on a coat and put a couple drops of the mix into the bolt carrier (you can use straight MMO at the range with a small bottle through the exhaust ports if you wish after a few hundred). Rifle stays wet, runs smooth and reliable. So far my "record" is 4 range trips with about 2000rds of that plentiful and cheap m193 we miss so dearly in my 20" A2 bushy without cleaning, or a problem of any kind. The "not quite a record" attempts were almost entirely cut short by my desire to clean the rifle I like so well, or the effects of too much fun on my bank account and ammo fund, I have probably had a dozen stoppages since I bought my EBR, all of them seemed to be ammo related short stroking. Upon disasembly it still had some lube in it, was not as dirty as I thought it would be, and basically the carbon could be basically wiped clean without much effort. MMO is used to reduce carbon deposits in engines by softening them, helping them contantly break up, and keep from building, kindof like the purpose of lube pills in a BP revolver. Mobil 1 is designed to encapsulate dirt, aiding "lubricity", and to be stable through a wide range of temperatures, and to stay put on metal. I always though outside of the fact that it's cheaper, engines operate in a somewhat similar environment as firearms, high temperatures, pressures, fast mving parts with minimum clearances, and constant "fuel" fouling. Basically if it is good enough for a $250,000 Ferrari, I think its good enough for the sport cars of the gun world.

 

[mmike87]

A weapon should run no matter what!

Nothing runs "no matter what." Every machine, even an AK, has limits, strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Evil Monkey]

Since we're talking about maintenance, is mineral oil good for guns?

Yesterday night, I was just cocking the bolt on my WASR AK just to get a feel for it since I always fired it dry since I got it. Then I found mineral oil and put some on the rails, bolt carrier portion where it rides on the rails, on the under side of the bolt, and on the hammer's face. I put the rifle back together and cocked the bolt.....HUGE difference!

It was alot smoother and far less rough. Some times when it was dry, the bolt would hang up on the hammer but now that doesn't happen unless you purposely ease the bolt forward to hang up. Even then, now with the oil the bolt slams forward, so that's a very good thing.

I'm just wondering if mineral oil is good enough or whether it's not the best thing to use on guns?

 

[Obiwan]

Jeremy- Thank you for your service

From Pat Rogers

This is only a part of the testing, but you can see the drift. More is better then less, something that we have been preaching for, oh, only 15 years or so,

www.militarytimes.com/news/2007/07/army_carbine_lubrication_070716/

Heavy lubrication shown to improve M16, M4 effectiveness

By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Jul 16, 2007 17:34:05 EDT

Army weapons officials might have found a way to improve the M16 family’s performance in the desert.

“Dust chamber” tests at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., last year show that M16 rifles and M4 carbines perform dramatically better when the weapon’s bolt assembly is heavily lubricated.

During each phase of the two-part “system assessment” at Army Test and Evaluation Command, testers fired 60,000 rounds through 10 weapon samples of each model.

Treated with light lubrication, new M16A4s and M4s, performed poorly in the extreme dust and sand conditions of the test, according to a January report from ATEC.

But when testers applied a heavy coat of lubrication to the weapons, the test results showed a “significant improvement.”

Out of the 60,000 rounds fired in each phase, the M4 stoppage-rate dropped from 9,836 with light lubrication to 678 with heavy lubrication.

The M16A4 stoppage-rate dropped from 2,124 with light lubrication to 507 with heavy lubrication, results show.

For years, Army weapons officials have preached to soldiers to virtues of applying a light coat of lubrication during weapons maintenance.

But the test results reinforce a recent change in weapons maintenance guidance Army units are practicing in Iraq and Afghanistan, said Col. Carl Lipsit, project manager for Soldier Weapons.

 

[Geronimo45]

Since we're talking about maintenance, is mineral oil good for guns?

Probably depends on the 'minerals' involved?

I've found that grease (white lithium grease, used for cars and such) works wonders for the cocking of a gun, even more so than oil. Maybe I cover the surfaces more thoroughly when using grease.

I find it very interesting that vaseline seemed to last longer than lithium grease in those KTOG tests. Might try that.

 

[[email protected]]

I agree, the AR likes to be well oiled.

The thing with ARs is that they are so easy to build that a lot of Joe 6-packs do build them. Most of the time they work. They are not fool proof and if they are not put together right, they won't be reliable. I have never had a problem with a factory put together AR but I have seen about 50% of the home made guns have reliabilty problems.

I think if you want to build one yourself, it is best to stick with all one brand. Get a DPMS kit or other good quality kit and you should be fine. I see trouble brew when people take used parts from 15 different companies and slap them together. I have a few like that and most of the time they do work. Sometimes, a part is so worn that it is out of spec and it causes problems. My last problem was a eroded chamber that caused my cases to stick. It was an unknown barrel with unknown rounds I got cheap on AR-15.com. You get what you pay for.

 

[hankpac]

Maybe I missed it in reading over the thread, but the original reasons for problems in VN had to do with a change in powder from that specified by Stoner, and minor changeds in the platform also not spec'd by Stoner. The powder type was the worst and largest contributing factor.
I carried a M-16 in VN in 68. I was there at the time we changed over from the 3 prong flash hider (a type that represented certain standards) to the Bird-cage flash hider (a whole different set up, including the chamber forward asist, and other cosmetic and internal changes). They didn't catch up with the powder thing until later.
We of course did not have any slight clue that the powder was at the base of all this, we only tried everything in the book to deal with failures to extract, and failures to feed, and stove pipes.
We short loaded the mags (18 instead of 20), we cleaned daily, we oiled, lubed, dried, we did everything we could think of.
Nothing made the gun reliable in the field, and many of us carried AK's, although when I went to recon, I was given a really nice M-16 that never jammed.
I own an AR now, completely stock (I don't have a need to build a M4gery) that shoots like a dream. I clean it rarely, stuff it with various loads, including my own and cheap-ass milsurp ammo. Never fails. Clean it properly once a month whether it needs it or not. Or not.