Great Wounding Ability-What Did It?

[gun_with_a_view]

There's something to be said for big and slow. But not that slow @ 975 fps. Entry wound on the left, exit on the right. Fifty-eight caliber, weighing 500+ grains. Who came up with this huckleberry?

Answer: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/31/the-bullet-that-changed-history/?_r=0

 

[Tommygunn]

Somewhere I have a book full of pictures of Civil War soldiers (American) who survived being shot with muskets and rifled muskets of that caliber and survived. The photos are horrific. It's amazing they could survive and even live as maimed as they were.
Those old BP long arms created very very nasty wounds....hitting bone, and that made it far far worse.
Forget modern hollow point 9mm. Those old guns did gnarly things to human bodies.

 

[jmr40]

If they hit bone damage was considerable and amputation was the only way to save someone many times. If no bone was hit death or immediate serious injury was not imminent. The bigger killer was from infection days later.

 

[CraigC]

Roundball or Minie, if a .58cal soft lead projectile zips through your body, you're in deep doodoo, whether it hits bone or not. I've had .54cal balls flatten out the size of a quarter and produce a massive wound.

 

[Sistema1927]

If no bone was hit death or immediate serious injury was not imminent..

Excepting hits to the CNS, heart, lungs, aorta, most arteries, liver, etc. I imagine that any of those would lead to imminent death without waiting for infection to set in.

 

[481]

Sometimes the old ways are the best ways. Large caliber (.58 to .70+ caliber) soft lead projectiles at speeds of 1,000 to 1,600 fps are unquestionably 'authoritative' in their ability to produce tissue damage.

 

[1911 guy]

Agreed. We have made ammunition more convenient, more stable and portable with less associated paraphernalia. But we haven't made it much more effective at common distances. There is nothing within 500 yards that modern ammunition does any better than black powder.

 

[Flechette]

Why is the entry wound star-shaped? The bullet appears to have a round cross section.

 

[hdwhit]

...the soft, hollow-based Minié ball flattened and deformed upon impact, while creating a shock wave that emanated outward.

The effect of this shock wave in producing a casualty - optimally a casualty who died a few days after being wounded - gradually came to be better appreciated over the remainder of the 19th and early 20th Centuries as armies gradually moved towards bullets of smaller diameter operating at higher velocities, in part to optimize the effect of shock on the wounded.

 

[Sistema1927]

Why is the entry wound star-shaped? The bullet appears to have a round cross section.

That is due to the flesh being ripped upon entry.

 

[entropy]

Agreed. We have made ammunition more convenient, more stable and portable with less associated paraphernalia. But we haven't made it much more effective at common distances. There is nothing within 500 yards that modern ammunition does any better than black powder.

Yes there is. It shoots much, much flatter, increasing lethality by making hitting targets easier at farther ranges.

 

[Flechette]

That is due to the flesh being ripped upon entry.

Well yes, but why is is symmetrical? It looks like a six-point star.

Ripping things typically results in a random shape. Ripping a piece of paper does not result in a straight line.

 

[suemarkp]

Agreed. We have made ammunition more convenient, more stable and portable with less associated paraphernalia. But we haven't made it much more effective at common distances. There is nothing within 500 yards that modern ammunition does any better than black powder.

Sure there is. Can you say flat trajectory? Projectile effectiveness is irrelevant if you miss. With a high velocity load, you can have flat shooting to 300 yards. With a bp round, you need to be good at range estimation once past 200 yards.

I would also say that recoil can be less which is also a benefit to accuracy. You just need to pick the right bullet to get the expansion/penetration right for your target.

 

[Zoogster]

Civil War injuries were brutal, and medical care for those only hit in a limb bone typically involved amputation.

The modern version of this is a typical shotgun slug.
But lack of accuracy at distance, weight of ammunition, and limited capacity along with significant recoil caused such projectiles to be replaced. Modern adoption of body armor by most professional threats put the nail in the coffin for the remaining slow, large, non-explosive projectiles.

About the only use left is for breeching where payload still matters more. Along with some use against disarmed prisoners who won't be in body armor, and if they manage to acquire the firearm will still be at a disadvantage to the body armor wearing rifleman that will be responding with longer range higher capacity weapons.

 

[1911 guy]

I thin everyone is confusing ease of use with effectiveness on target. Modern propellants and projectiles have improved the experience of the shooter. Less stuff required to load and shoot, flatter trajectories make for easier hold offs and sight adjustments. Velocities also make leading targets somewhat less challenging. But none of those improvements result in a bullet having more effect on a target. The only place we see this is the realm of long range rifles, where they surpass not just the convenience of black powder rifles, but the capabilities.

 

[FLNT4EVR]

That star shaped wound looks like one of the new shotgun slugs , after dropping the sabot a 20 ga would be about 58 caliber

 

[mbok1947]

Star shaped wounds are usually the result of a contact or near-contact distance from barrel to target.

 

[dogtown tom]

Why is the entry wound star-shaped? The bullet appears to have a round cross section.

Because it's not a photograph, but a painting.

 

[CraigC]

That star shaped wound looks like one of the new shotgun slugs , after dropping the sabot a 20 ga would be about 58 caliber

A 20ga is only about .62cal to start with. Most sabot rounds are no larger than .50.

 

[Archie]

Black powder rounds were larger in caliber and weight as that was the only way to get more impact energy on target. The top velocity was limited to around 2,000 feet per second. (I can't remember the exact figure, but it's around there.)

With the advent of smokeless powder, higher velocities were possible. That meant smaller caliber and less weight projectiles with the same 'energy' were possible. Wounds were no less disabling, but often less 'impressive' in appearance, unless made at close range. Interior damage is just as serious.

Which is not to say the old cartridges don't do the same job they always have. They're just not as efficient to carry and use under difficult conditions.

The change in technology allowing more wounded people to survive and recover is in medical science and treatment in treating wounds. Better treatment and quicker responses make things better. But getting shot is just as bad as it ever was.

 

[rugerman]

Sometimes the old ways are the best ways. Large caliber (.58 to .70+ caliber) soft lead projectiles at speeds of 1,000 to 1,600 fps are unquestionably 'authoritative' in their ability to produce tissue damage.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Why is the entry wound star-shaped? The bullet appears to have a round cross section.

Well yes, but why is is symmetrical? It looks like a six-point star.

Ripping things typically results in a random shape. Ripping a piece of paper does not result in a straight line.

Because it's not a photograph, but a painting.

Because, sometimes they really are symmetrical. Check out the link here. You will have to flip through to page 22...
http://www.slideshare.net/cathrinediana/gun-shot-wounds-55083861

There are a couple more on this page, but some of the images are pretty gruesome.
http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f10/gunshot-wound-deaths-100661/

Then there was this chap. Shot in the middle of the forehead, between the eyes, and lived. Here is his story ... http://incass-inmiami.org/cass/bio_gen/millerjacob.html

 

[BigBore44]

Then there was this chap. Shot in the middle of the forehead, between the eyes, and lived. Here is his story ... http://incass-inmiami.org/cass/bio_gen/millerjacob.html

The human body never ceases to amaze me.....

It's only my opinion, but I think it's just a difference between old school and modern shooters. People survived and thrived with spears, snares, and arrows for thousands of years. Then BP came along. Then scopes. Now we have modern powder and projectiles. But the devastation of the bullets is still very similar. Obviously there are some exceptions. But in the right hands, the ole smoke pole is still a very lethal weapon at distance.

 

[Tommygunn]

..............Then there was this chap. Shot in the middle of the forehead, between the eyes, and lived. Here is his story ... http://incass-inmiami.org/cass/bio_gen/millerjacob.html

Yikes. I once read a short medical precis about a soldier in WW2 on a Pacific Island who experienced a through and through rifle shot from a sniper that passed through the chasm separating the right half of his brain and left half and didn't realize he'd been shot until his commanding officer pointed out the hole in his helmet. He survived as well but the hole in his skin was sewn shut and it healed properly.

 

[gun_with_a_view]

These are not paintings:
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNINJ.html