grimjaw, poster child for negligent discharge stupidity

[Kodiaz]

Just out of curiosity. Grimjaw did you grow up around firearms? BTW if you need to get a feel for the trigger then you don't know that gun yet it shouldn't be loaded (A). They make little fake plastic bullets with a spring loaded primer so you can dry fire until you know exactly when the hammer drops or to condition yourself to hold the firearm steady while you pull the trigger. Go to the range and shoot that thing until you don't need to play with it anymore. Then put it in your HD spot with one in the chamber(if you like)

 

[eastwood44mag]

My ex-roommate had an uncle who was a hunter's ed instructor. Well, one night while cleaning his Winchester (don't ask model, I dunno), he emptied the magazine, and forgot about the chamber. He then pulled the trigger.

Blew off the top of the bed post. When asked what happened, he only replied "I forgot about the one in the chamber"

 

[Kodiaz]

I think you r rounds not penetrating stuff (monitor desk and such is because you use hollow points, hydra shock, etc.) In my HD pistol i keep 165 gr win FMJ. Good old winchester white box. I do this becasue hollywood has taught most people that bullets don't go through furniture and interior walls(plaster or drywall w studs every 16 in or so) so when the BG is taking "cover" behind a couch or a wall i'll just shoot through it and be done with it.

I use the 165 gr instead of the 180gr because it has a higher velocity.


velocity squared X mass = force

 

[middy]

Let this be a reminder: All guns are loaded! Every time you pick one up you check the chamber, even if you cleared it 2 minutes ago, as soon as it leaves your hands and your full attention it is to be considered loaded again and must be checked.

 

[grimjaw]

Just out of curiosity. Grimjaw did you grow up around firearms?

Kodiaz, we did have firearms in the house, and I did shoot BB guns and .22's up until the time I went to college. However, I won't say there was a culture of gun safety. My father also didn't handle firearms often or take the chance to reinforce the four rules when I was younger. I lost interest in firearms for several years after that, and it hasn't been until recently that I came back around. There were alot of things I had to learn on my own through experience, besides firearms, which has been both good and bad.

They make little fake plastic bullets with a spring loaded primer so you can dry fire

Snap caps. I am familiar with them and I have several. But they don't make spring loaded rimfire snap caps, just a plastic mockup that gets chewed up after about three shots. I use expended rimfire brass as snap caps in rimfire guns. But I didn't this time, and that was a mistake. One poster mentioned complacency, and that's another thing I was guilty of.

jmm

 

[sumpnz]

grimjaw - I would highly recommend that you never fix the hole in the desk, and that you always keep that desk. And do all of your gun related stuff at or near that desk. That hole will be your constant reminder of why those 4 rules are so important and will help you avoid similar complacency in the future. If you can find the bullet I would also save that as an additional reminder.

 

[Yardstick]

Let this be a reminder: All guns are loaded! Every time you pick one up you check the chamber, even if you cleared it 2 minutes ago, as soon as it leaves your hands and your full attention it is to be considered loaded again and must be checked.

My thoughts exactly.

All the guns in my safe are unloaded. I check them before they go in, but to me they are loaded when they come out until I have checked the chamber. If I dry fire any gun I check before I dry fire and if it leaves my hand the first thing I do when I pick it up again is check the chamber. They are all loaded all the time until the chamber is safely verified otherwise.

I have a new AR that I haven't been able to shoot yet and it has not chambered a single round because I am so paranoid about the possibility of it discharging when the action closes. I still check the chamber every time I take it out of the case to look at it.

 

[middy]

I have a new AR that I haven't been able to shoot yet and it has not chambered a single round because I am so paranoid about the possibility of it discharging when the action closes. I still check the chamber every time I take it out of the case to look at it.

Exactly! If it is done as a routine it becomes a habit, and it may save a life.

Like Tuner would say, "Ees not safe, ees gun!" Proper firearms handling requires your full sober attention and respect.

 

[Tom Servo]

Grimjaw, it takes a big man to admit to something like this, and an even bigger man to post it for all to see. I'm sure you've learned, and it's very fortunate nobody was hurt.

I haven't had an ND *YET*. It's that "yet" that bothers me, because statistically, it's bound to happen someday. I once had an AD with a CZ52 at the range. A fellow had handed it to me to try. I was talking to him while I slapped the magazine in. I dropped the slide, and *bang*, it slam-fired. Fortunately, the gun was pointed at the floor, roughly downrange, and nothing was hit, but I can tell you, that was the loudest noise I've ever heard. An unintentional discharge of any kind is really frightening, and I realized that while I was running my mouth, I wasn't really paying any attention, and the gun could have just as easily fired into somebody's leg.

I generally don't handle unloaded guns, except to clean them. I've dry-fired a couple to break them in, but even then, only after verifying and re-verifying that they were empty. Rule #3 should dictate everything. This is why I always get uncomfortable when people dry-fire guns in shops.

Again, glad to hear you're okay. It's a good lesson for all of us.

 

[Rock45]

Some people may disagree, but I make Rule #1 a reality. All my guns are always loaded, all the time. I take them out of the safe, clear them, clean them, reload them and put them back in the safe. I have to unload and clear them to make a trip to the range, after which they are cleaned, loaded, and returned to thier dedicated spots in the safe.

What ya need is a piece of 4" Drain Pipe filled with sand and mounted at an angle to point your weapons into when arming, making safe, etc. It really does make the whole thing safer and less stressful.

Bryan

 

[teCh0010]

I will confess my biggest brainiac move, though. I once carried a gun all day without a magazine.

I have no idea how I managed that one. Thank goodness I didn't need it. I'd have had to throw the darn thing at someone.

I was standing in line behind a Sherrif's officer in a sub shop and noticed he did not have a magazine in his weapon. When I told him he informed me I was wrong and the mag was right here. When he put his finger on the bottom and it went into the mag well he started to belive me. I had to save his place in line while he went out and loaded his weapon.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

What kind of lame brain would forget to double check a
weapon for a "forgotten" round? {pregnant pause} ...ME?

I gravity dumped the rounds from a revolver (without
using the ejector) and pocketed the rounds without
counting them and proceeded to dry fire. Needless to
say I found out to my surprise a round had stuck in
the cylinder. Some can learn from the mistakes of
others but some of us learn the hard way.

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
Repeat often.

Follow RULE II and Accidental or Negligent Discharge is less harmful.
Even if dry firing.
I know. The hard way.

 

[f4t9r]

Main thing to all this is make sure it is always pointed in a safe direction when the gun is not being used for shooting, because we know these things can happen from time to time.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I am of the opinion that if you handle firearms long enough, a ND/AD will eventually happen. However, so long as you remember the most important rule, no one will get hurt. I will add that in my book, rule #1 is muzzle control.

Case in point, awhile back I was just putting up my Beretta Stampede .45 Colt. Before I go any farther, I will note that all handguns in the gun room (vault) are kept fully loaded. Anyway, I always cover my guns in a thin layer of oil. I had the hammer on half-cock in order to rotate the cylinder. When I was done wiping, I proceeded to rest the hammer as I always have. It/I slipped. But because of rule #1, The only harm was a hole in the carpet, a lead smudge on the concrete below and a ringing in my ears for a few hours.
I have since installed a discharge barrel with 22" of fine sand to save my carpet in the future

I have also had 2 unintentional discharges, one a slamfire caused by a broken firing pin spring, the other a worn sear. But again, the bullets hit concrete or dirt.

So long as your muzzle is kept in a safe direction, the only thing that will be hurt is your ears and your pride.

I think you r rounds not penetrating stuff (monitor desk and such is because you use hollow points, hydra shock, etc.) In my HD pistol i keep 165 gr win FMJ. Good old winchester white box. I do this becasue hollywood has taught most people that bullets don't go through furniture and interior walls(plaster or drywall w studs every 16 in or so) so when the BG is taking "cover" behind a couch or a wall i'll just shoot through it and be done with it.

I use the 165 gr instead of the 180gr because it has a higher velocity.


velocity squared X mass = force

I hate to break it to ya, but small arms bullets have an incredibly tough time getting through barriers of any kind. Cars, walls, furniture, electronics, etc. all tend to slow them down severely or completely stop them. This does not begin to change until the weapon is a rifle and the caliber is over .30". Hollyweird has yet to figure this out.

Also, the 180 gain loads for your .40 Short&weak will be better penetrators than the 165's, despite lower velocity. Need I mention sectional density and momentum?

Lastly,

velocity squared X mass = force

The formula uses energy, not force, (E=MC squared), and this particuler equation does not apply to the kinetic energy developed by small arms projectiles. That formula is Velocity squared, divided by 450,240, then multiplied by bullet weight in grains. And muzzle energy/muzzle velocity are not yardsticks for penetration.

 

[tiamat]

grimjaw, thanks for sharing your experience. It has made me think twice about my current practices as well.

 

[Gimme.50]

On the plus side you missed the quarter.

So you have that going for you.

Okay, this is a very serious topic, I've had my own ND/AD with an AK-47 no less, but I've got to say...Here2Learn's post is just plain hilarious.

 

[Burt Blade]

The Simplified Rules of Gun Handling:


Guns go boom when you pull the trigger.

Point the gun at the boom catcher before you pull the trigger.




or just focus on:


...the boom... ...will go....... _there_

 

[Scott F]

I feel great compassion for you. I too had one screw-up that taught me forever. I was cleaning my Ruger Single-Six. I always removed the cylinder before doing anything else, except for that day. I removed the grips and hammer spring. I then pushed the hammer forward with my thumb and put a hole in the top of my desk much like yours. That was in 1969 and the fear of ever doing something like that still lives in my heart.

About your ears. It will get better but it will not go away. That kind of hearing loss is progressive and irreversible. I know, I shot 250 rounds of 38 hardball a day five days a week for two years in the days when there was no EAR company. I was on a ships pistol team and we had no clue how bad I was hurting myself. If you want to hear what your grandchildren say then take care of your ears when you work, play or shoot.

 

[chenzzo]

About 13-14 years ago, I pulled somthing like this and put a 30-30 round through the passenger window of my grandfather's car. Shattered the window, broke the side mirror, went through the dash and hit DEAD CENTER on the onboard computer. The car was DEAD, not even the radio would come on.

We were out on his property getting ready for a morning of deer hunting, me on a stand by myself, Grandpa and my little brother on another stand. We had just got out of the car and got the rifles situated. I loaded up the lever action 30-30 and chambered a round since I had previously seen deer on the trail to the stand, and wanted to be ready.

When I went to the let the hammer down, I was having trouble with it, I couldn't get the feel of when the trigger was engaged enough to let me get control of the hammer and let it down, so I struggled with it for a minute or two. Of course when I put my finger on the trigger to start with, I made sure I Was pointing away from the the vehicle and my grandpa and little bro, but in the course of fiddling with the gun I got my feet turned around and wound up pointing at the car without realizing it.

I'm not sure what I was thinking (or if I WAS thinking), but at some point I got my fingers mixed up and instead of letting go of the trigger and lowering the hammer, I let go of the hammer while I kept my finger on the trigger. You know what happens then. I have never been that scared in my life. It was the first and only time (so far) that I have ever had a gun go off in my hand without wanting it to.

I thank God all the time that I wound up pointing at the car instead of at my family. The walk back to the hunting cabin was no fun, I can tell you that. Not to mention the 4 hour ride from his house back to my parents' house in the rain, with plastic sheeting over the window. I still have that computer with the bullet imbedded in it around somwhere. The sad thing is that I had to do something like that to really get ahold of proper gun safety.

 

[lawson]

i have never had a ND myself, but i have a scar on my calf from my brother's ND. it was a .22LR, and i was lucky. it grazed my calf, cutting me like a knife. he wears the .22 shell on his keychain as a reminder.

 

[bachman1961]

Playing Qwik Draw

I worked for an Armored Money Transport Company for a few years and I could hardly believe the stories I heard but they had to be true because I heard the same stories from many different people. After all the firearms training, safety, legal and otherwise, guys used to play quick draw in front of the mens room mirror and had the revolver (S&W Model 10) go of unexpectedly on numerous occasions. About the time the company was going to approve semi-auto carry I moved on. A few of the employees were not worthy of semi auto carry (so I thought), but boy could they stop a mirror!

 

[dch1978]

I am new to post here. Have been lurking for awhile now and generally the information is great. Really love the site.

On Topic.

My good friend had a ND while cleaning a springfield XD, turns out he got a phone call in the middle and had a stupid roomate that seemed interested in its operation, atleast he did turn away from said roomate to release the slide and aimed it at the closet, effectively killing his vacuum.

You would think that he would have been more careful about that sort of thing as he was the guy who probably saved my life after I was shot by another friend 8 years ago, 20 guage 8 shot in the knee, kept the leg and a very good reminder of safety every time I take a shower. No pictures, I was 19, Mom would not take pictures for two weeks, by then it had pretty much closed up and was just a crater on both sides. 20 lead bb's remain and some can be felt from the surface.

Just a reminder that even ND's can happen after a major accident has already been in your mind.

 

[pax]

I hate to break it to ya, but small arms bullets have an incredibly tough time getting through barriers of any kind. Cars, walls, furniture, electronics, etc. all tend to slow them down severely or completely stop them.

Ummph.

If Plan A involves aiming any firearm at an interior wall and hoping it doesn't kill someone you love on the other side, I think you'd best look for Plan B.

http://www.theboxotruth.com

pax

 

[Navy joe]

I posted this a long time ago somewhere, TFL, but I'll put it here for education's sake. I will say it technically was not an AD or ND since I meant to do it, things could have been worse though and I coulda worn earplugs.

I was tired of the internet lore so was in the midst of a Wolf/Barnaul .223 torture test with my AR, I was working my way through several cases of said ammo over 6 months and many range sessions(150-300 per trip) without cleaning. I wanted to see how much a Colt HBAR would take before it choked. Everything was going good except that probably 1-2 of 500 would not fire, probably hard primer. Around round 1500 the thing jammed, first time. The gun went bang, next trigger pull was click instead of boom, so I immediately set aside critical thinking and troubleshooting, deciding that obviously the round had fired and the case would not extract.

The gun was certainly jammed to support my new-found theory. No amount of tugging on the charging handle would move it. Pulling on the charging handle while banging the butt on the deck didn't do a thing. I borrowed a steel rod, figured I go down the bore and tap in that direction with a hammer while pulling the charging handle back. You know how smart muzzle loaders mark a ramrod so they know how deep an empty barrel is? Good idea that is. I pulled the rod out and it came with a few pieces of unburnt powder. About that time I got a clue and decided to ask if I really knew that was an empty case in there or was something else up.

I bagged the gun and took it home. After much pondering I had a plan, good in all respects except the earplugs. I split the gun at the rear pushpin, manually recocked the hammer and closed the gun back up. I then figured where the gas and sewer lines were and were not under the house in the crawlspace, stuck the muzzle in the dirty clothes basket and aimed directly down at said safe spot on the floor. Pulled the trigger and immediately said to myself "now it's unloaded dumb@## " then noted rather loudly(I think because I couldn't hear) and colorfully how exactly loud an AR fired indoors is. Midday, all windows open, middle of the city, not one other person noticed, kind of interesting if you dream that a neighbor would help if something bad happened.

As it turned out, I had encountered a hard primer round. The gun had fired, then the next round had not. Could be a failure to extract, except how exactly would the hammer in an AR reset if the action had not cycled due to a stuck case? I didn't think that far. Probability was out to hurt me that day. In all actuality the gun had probably been sticking cases for quite some time, just that the firing impulse cleared them when manual clearing could not. I learned what I wanted to know about laquered ammo, learned something more about troubleshooting, and then spent the rest of the day scrubbing my gun and cursing my lack of hearing. I now know that laquered ammo is usable in an AR, you just better clean it. Very tough extractor in that gun to deal with all of that.

I later applied my lesson upon breaking the barrel in a 1911, ripping the lower lugs completely off, taking the bottom of the chamber with them. No overcharge, just a really old barrel that had enough. The gun fired with an odd noise and smoke rolled out from in between the frame and slide, barrel, etc. Remembering the AR lesson I grabbed a pencil, stuck it down the bore, verified the length was the same length as the external length from muzzle to rear of barrel hood. Only them did I start looking and poking down the bore. Turns out the fired case had stayed in one piece, no ruptures but had expanded to fill the broken out areas, locking it into the barrel, no extraction possible. The local 1911 guru after much pounding said I'd have to cut the slide to get it free. I pondered on it some, then stuck some sacrificial metal(soda can scope shim) under the slide release and carefully cut the lever in half, pushed the pin out and got the barrel out. A Sistema barrel and slide release had the gun working five minutes later good enough to shoot a match the next day with no issues, but I also had a new barrel coming in the mail that I had come by cheap. The old barrel you could tell had been breaking for a while, some of the crack was battered up where the metal was beating together, while some was just dull, indicating it had been cracked a good while. A crack followed a rifling groove halfway to the muzzle. The case is still in the barrel.

Think things through when things go wrong, it may save another headache later. Or, good judgement come from experience comes from bad judgement.

 

[CombatArmsUSAF]

Same Gun-Same Situation

A few years ago I was playing with my dads pocket beretta and thought I had cleared it out. All of a sudden "Bang" and there was a hole in my parents dresser. Luckily I was the only one home and the drawer that it had hit had been empty. If my parents had been home my dad would have arranged me not being able to sit down for a week after that. That was quite a few years ago and I still haven't told them about it. I fixed the hole with some toothpaste and one of those wood color pens.

Being an instructor I clear guns numerous times daily. What has my experience and training taught me? To clear a gun before you handle it and most definitely before you drop the hammer, then clear it again, then again, then again.