Gun ownership in France -- still active

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I love the US and I wish our laws would be improved (taking yours as an example).
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Do your laws show any sign of improving, or possibly getting even worse? I guess what I am asking is whether the pro-gun people, especially in power, outnumber the extremists looking to erode your freedoms even further? Seems as though ours swing back and forth with every knee-jerk reaction to a current tragedy.
 
I sell several grips to France and I had always figured they were used on demils and airsoft and the like. So I guess they do get used on the real deal. Hmm the more I learn.
 
To answer your question gun laws are holding steady here and getting better, and there are TONS more pro-gun than anti-gun people here however the antis have one major advantage they have the fair share of the media under their control. But things are good for now hopefully a ruling in our courts will make thing a lot better.
 
hello

Hello Lady's and gentlemen.

I'm the french guy who contact Oleg.

I will try to help my European friend for explain our laws.

a) Self Defense :
Not possible in France. Before 1995 you could buy a gun of 4th category (revolver 357mag for exemple) for defense of your house. But impossible to carry this gun in the street.
The definition of self defense is : "You answer must be proportionally to the attack".
I explain.. Your could kill you agressor if you are dead. AH AH AH !!

b) Cowboy action shooting :
I confirm the BARMAN Comment.
It's a romantic vision of great american history and western movie.
Many peoples love it. It's a good competition.
See here my pictures of the last "WESTERN SHOW" in Versailles shooting range.
http://feulibre.forumactif.com/Les-...estern-f27/Western-day-a-Versailles-t2910.htm

c) Blade law :
We could buy any blades, but it's completly forbiden to carry it in the street.
Like a gun. Exactly the same rule.
When you are a shooter, you could carry your gun from your house to the shooting range where you usualy shoot or for a competition, to an other shooting range. But your weapons must be desactivated in a case during the travel.

d) The law in france before 1995 :
Many thinks have change (and change every month).
But 15 years ago approximatly we have lost many free gun access.
Before this date, the semi-automatic rifle in civilian caliber like AR15, beretta70, Steyr AUG, Mini14 in 222rem are completly free access. You give you National identity card to the gunsmith and you live the shop with your rifle. Know it's a classified gun and you need 6 months of investigation before to have your authorisation to buy it (like for all 1st and 4th category weapons).
Before this date we could buy full automatic weapon. Classified 1st category chapter 2. The news 1st category chapter 2 is only for the semi-automatic rifle. The full automatique rifle are classified 1st category chapter 4. Completly forbidden for civilian shooters.

e) Luxembourg law :
I'm french but I visit Switezerland and Belgium some time. And I will visit Luxembourg next week for the first time.
I promise you it's with the Switzerland law probably the best pleasant law in Europe for gun.
The badest law where praticaly every guns are Ban, it's the English NIGHTMARE. It's the badest law of all Ouest Europe.

f) Eric Grauffel :
Yes, Eric is the greatest french competitor for IPSC.
Since it's a gouvernment pro gun no problem but during the socialist period IPSC competition was threaten and Eric was international competitor but not recognized like a French competitor because the French shooting federation dont support him and was afraid buy the sport ministry who dont think this shooting competiton was politicaly correct. To close of a combat training (BS, IPSC is not efficient for combat training. Not the same rules).
I imagine if we try to have IDPA competition here ;-)
Actualy some friend try to built NTTC school, but many police officers and military say it's not good. They are afraid that civilian could have a good training level for combat shooting. Why ?? Paranoïac classic reaction about civilian with gun.
I dont practice IPSC shooting competition, but FUN SHOOTING COMPETITION. Same think, but on a fixed post with not too much displacment with the gun.
Two little video do by of my brother :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5w1Xr__geg
(The guy with the red tee-shirt is mister OBRIO on of the Eric Grauffel time friend)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKyzOI7cac8

Well, I let you, I will do a 30 shoots drill with my brother today.
Just for fun a little video we do next winter. Just for fun.
http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/...rrent=sceance_ar15_fun_011106_mini_musiqu.flv

See you and take care, Mick.
 
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I just receive 1 order of Dragon grips engrave from France - Metropolitan(FX code) for his 1911A1 colt .

I really don't know much more about France.Do they ban firearm?
 
Hi,

No limit for the barrel lenght for classified gun.
My AR15 Commando is 11.5"

If you want buy a unclassified gun, you have a limit.
The barrel must not be smaller than 45cm and the global lenght of the gun must not be less than 81 cm.

No, no, we donc BAN GUN ;)
We have many guns ;-)
Look these picture of my last little 200m shooting training with some friends.
http://ar15france.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3756

And here some pictures of French shooting range.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=49&t=260535

See you, Mick.
 
This is an interested thread, for sure!

I was in France with my parents a number of years ago, and I was young enough that I was getting a little overloaded with all the museums we were visiting.

We just happened to end up visiting Chambord when the annual hunting and fishing show was going on. It was awesome :). Best hunting and fishing show I have ever seen, by far.
 
The thing with French laws is that lots of illegal things are "tolerated". There is a huge differenece based upon if you live in a densely populated urban area or in the countryside. We are very keen on being moderate about enforcing laws.
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An interesting story on the different perspectives between the US and France...I had an American friend and a French friend driving together back from the range in the US, with a bunch of covered guns in the back seat and a couple machine guns in the trunk. The Frenchman was driving, and had left his passport and ID at home. They got pulled over by a cop...the Frenchman was horrified that the American would actually tell the cop about the guns when asked (they were covered up and not apparent) - especially the machine guns in the trunk (all legal). The American was horrified when he discovered the Frenchman didn't have papers on him.

It's interesting (to me, anyway), because the American was concerned with the letter of the law, and the Frenchman had a more common-sense approach to the law.
 
Barman, Thanks for the update to us regarding the laws in your country. Most of us only know what we are accuratly informed of, and information such as this helps each of us see the bigger picture.
 
Do you have concealed carry? Can you use guns for self defense?
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Self defense at home is OK I think. But you can't shoot an unarmed person. But if the intruder is armed, I think you can use a gun.

Concealed carry is only for very few people. I know a psychologist who works with prisoners for example and who was threatened by one. They told him he could require a permit to carry concealed. Same for police officers in similar situations I guess. But generally it's almost impossible to get a permit.
 
Wow, Luxembourg concealed carry laws sound like Canadian laws, only special/certain people get them, or your average owner has to bend over backwards, pat there head and rub their tummy while jumping through flaming hoops at the circus to get a license called an ATC. I may have embellished a bit about the flaming hoops!
 
as so often in France, the statute and the actual practice can differ widely depending on your relations with the local law enforcement agency.
 
MD_Willington

Yes, that sounds familiar ;)

But hopefully I can go to the police school next year. I never thought about that, but perhaps I will get a chance to obtain a permit when I'm in LE. Who knows?
 
Do you think there is a connection between the 1995 change in gun laws and French immigration trends?

In the US, it seems that politicians fear citizens, who are different than themselves, and enact laws because of it.
 
What the hell??!!

How did you figure that? Wow that's a real surprise to me since I always thought we had some of the best...Besides that loaded Glock 17 next to me disagrees with you. (as well as the S&Ws, Sig and Browning in the safe)

I can buy ANY gun you can imagine (if it's available from the companies, so for example no G36s from stupid H&K). Any semi-auto rifle or handgun can be had and shot at every range in this country. The only restrictions are that fully automatic guns can only be had as collectory items. That means you can have the gun and even ammo, but you can't take them to the range. Suppressors and stuff like that is OK too. All in all the laws are pretty relaxed compared to a lot of other coutries.
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Maybe you should drop a line to the National Rifle Association. They have published the myth (as it turns out) that there is a total gun ban in Luxembourg:

Equally erroneous is the impression that Europe is uniformly anti-gun. Laws vary. Luxembourg totally bans all guns from civilian ownership. France, Belgium and Germany allow citizens to own handguns but these countries are more restrictive than most U.S. states. In Austria, every law-abiding citizen has a legal right to buy handguns, and roughly ten per cent of Austrians have done so (compared to 16 per cent of U.S. citizens).
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http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?ID=72

By the way, this is the first hit on 'luxembourg gun laws' when I search on Google. That could be where the myth is generated.
 
You guys might find this interesting. Panama has the loosest gun laws I've seen for a developed country other than the US.

""If you have permission to buy the firearm you can carry it concealed on your person, in your pocket or purse, in your vehicle etc. Certain buildings have a firearms prohibited sign on the entrance and of course you should obey these signs. Banks, airports, government offices have such signs. So there are no concealed carry permits in Panama, if you can buy the gun lawfully you can carry it concealed. Exposed carry of the firearm is not allowed and will cause police attention fast.

Types of Guns in Panama – You can buy handguns (semi-auto handguns, revolvers), rifles and shotguns. You can have hi-capacity magazines in any type gun, no restrictions. You can not have full-auto firearms. You can have semi-auto rifles and handguns. You can not have a silencer. Guns are costly in Panama, figure 50% higher than North America on name brand guns like Ruger, Sig Sauer, Smith, Remington, etc. Gun dealers generally do not have a large inventory in Panama. Expect to see 10 or so rifles and shotguns in stock and perhaps as many handguns. Many of the guns will be cheapies from Argentina and Russia. The dealer can order you what you want but expect a wait of 2-3 months or more then add in the time for the permission to buy the gun to go through.

The Gun Buying Process in Panama – First you go to the gun store and prove to them you are eligible to buy a firearm by way of Residency, Pensionado, etc. Next you select a gun and pay for it. Then the gun store will have you go to the bathroom and pee in a cup which is a medical sample cup. Then you will be given a form to take to a government health office for a finger prick blood test – DNA sample. Plan on a wait to get your blood sample. Next the gun store sends the paperwork through the police system. It goes to three departments and can take 6-10 weeks to clear. When it is complete you get the gun. More than one gun can be bought at the same time. You also get a gun permit which is a folded piece of green cardboard paper which a photo on it. You can enter up to 10 guns on the permit. Panama does not limit amount of guns so if you earn more than 10 guns an additional listing page will be provided for the permit. The police will take ballistic sample of a fired round.

Sawed off Shotguns and Short Barreled Rifles – These are legal in Panama. They are not sold that way but can be modified by a gunsmith to suit. Pistol grip shotguns with no shoulder stock are generally available in the stores with an 18” barrel and a large magazine underneath. Double barrel shotguns are available and of course can easily be shortened by a gunsmith; you could even add a choke so the short barrel groups tight. Short barrel rifles can also be created by a gunsmith but the purpose of this is hard to determine other than slightly reducing the barrel length on an assault rifle but in any event it is lawful. I guess some want to do it because they could not do so in their home country?

Ammo- No armor piercing ammo allowed. Hollow points, high speed light weight defensive rounds etc. are fine.

Firearm Importation into Panama – This is possible. Generally this appeals to Americans since they seem to have lots of firearms. You go to a gun store and get their assistance. You apply for an importation permit which is something like the same process for a purchase if you do not already have a permit. It is easier if you have a permit. Then you get permission to import the weapon into Panama. There can be problems and restrictions shipping a firearm from other countries like the USA which require the services of a licensed gun dealer able to export. You would Fed Ex the unloaded gun with paperwork from USA and Panama to Panama. Then you would hope for the best and that things sort themselves out before the gun rusts out in some non-climate controlled government warehouse somewhere. You will be required to pay an import duty which can be steep. A customs broker would be best source for costs on this, we do not know but a guess would be 50% of the value – is it new or used, etc. We are a law firm not a customs broker. If you have a question about bringing in some rare special gun like a Browning Safari Grade Rifle or a Heckler and Koch squeeze cocker handgun we really have no idea what the taxes will be. First become eligible for buy a gun and then retain a customs broker. Suggestion: Skip the importation process, buy a gun in Panama.

Ranges – There are an ample amount of indoor handgun ranges and outdoor ranges. No worries.

Knives – You can carry concealed knives. Do not carry an exposed sheath knife in the city – asking for trouble from the police. There are no blade size restrictions. You can carry butterfly knives, automatic knifes, gravity or flick knives, out the front knives, double edge folders (carry Band-Aids) whatever kind of knife. Most of the available knives are the cheapos, sometime you see a medium grade product like a Smith and Wesson knife. Bring your good knives with you, not in carry on. Do not take knives into government buildings, airports, banks and other restricted places. It will come up on the metal detector.

Pepper Spray – Readily available small canisters. No permits needed. Decent quality, not gourmet pepper spray but effective enough.

Swords, Tonfas, Batons, Billy Clubs, Staffs, Nunchukas – All readily available and not restricted.

Panama is a very safe country and you probably will never need to use your firearm to defend yourself.

http://http://www.panamalaw.org/panama_gun_laws.html
 
Well, I apologize to our friends in Luxembourg. I have been there, and it's a nice place. I was wrong about a gun ban. But it's not just the NRA with bad info - I found several anti-gun sites with the same idea, and frankly I originally was told there was a ban on private ownership by a German. I guess I should have checked further. I even found four (count 'em, four) shooting clubs listed for Luxembourg city - you can see them here ("tir aux armes" listings at http://www.vdl.lu/Services+communaux/Sports/Clubs+sportifs-highlight-armes.html)

The law of 1983 apparently just requires "permission" from the Minister of Justice to own most types of guns.

http://www.legilux.public.lu/leg/textescoordonnes/compilation/recueil_lois_speciales/ARMES.pdf

The section on permissions is section C, paragraph 16 on.
 
Barman; It is interesting to read your views on laws there vs here.

Two of my favorite guns are a 28ga Darne and an old 16ga Charlin. There are not to many of those over here, esp the Charlins.

Jeff
 
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