Gun safe modification for limited space. Ideas?

[JWarren]

Guys, I need a little help brainstorming a couple non-standard gun safe ideas.

PLEASE, let’s not get into a discussion of “Safes” verses “Residential Security Containers.” It’s not the focus of this thread post, and not productive to the desired end result. I’ll be using the term Gun Safe as a general term to encompass the entire spectrum with no regard to technicalities.

Here’s the situation:

I have a 100 year old frame home. Like many homes built in this period, the floor plan does not focus as well on our “Modern” lifestyle and needs. I’ve done quite a bit of subtle modifications and creative solutions in making the house work.

Moving is not an option. Nor is drastic alteration to the home. This home was built by my great-grandfather, and I have made strong efforts to keep the home in its “period” style.

Like most homes of this period, closet space is VERY limited. To make matters worse, I have VERY little usable wall space. Perhaps it is a function of the lack of air conditioning in that period or a desire to let more light in, the home has MANY tall windows taking up precious amounts of wall space.

Now couple that with the fact that the floor plan itself has utilized far too much of the wall space with built in book cases and other architectural nuances and my wife’s propensity to appropriate the very last bit of wall space with interior designing, I have VERY little—or should I say NO room to stick a nice Gun Safe against a wall.

I have identified a couple places that I could stick a narrow gun safe in my study. However, it is a fairly small room that was converted from a sun room. And I seriously mean a sun room—that sucker has 9 windows in it! However, putting a gun safe in here SERIOUSLY cramps up an already cozy space.

That leaves me with a couple other options that move towards the “unconventional.”

I am interested in a HORIZONTAL gun safe where I can store a few guns inside the house for easier access. Because this house is made of Heart Pine and Heart Cypress, it would go up like a match if a fire broke out. Fire protection is a must.

I’ve seen this safe:

http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safe-HC1854.htm


Frankly, I am not all that thrilled about it. The top looks awfully thin. The cabinet—thank God, I suppose—is not included. It looks like something I’d see in cheap hotel furniture anyway. Even so, that means I’d have to have a cabinet built to match our furniture.

It IS fire-rated, and seems to offer SOME degree of protection.

But I see that the price tag hovers near the $2K mark. Frankly, that seems OUTRAGEOUS considering what level of protection you are getting and the lack of real modification to make the safe a horizontal design.

So…


I am exploring the options building/modifying a gun safe to a horizontal configuration. As I see it, the major challenges are:

- The door will be heavier. However, one of the things I dislike about the above safe is its thin door. I believe that the door of the size safe I am considering would be able to be opened. I would have to add a “Hold-Open” mechanism that is very sturdy.

- I would rather the controls be facing the side rather than what would normally be standard. But I can live with them.

- I would need to gut the safe and put in properly aligned racks. No biggie here.

- I will probably have to install an external handle to assist in opening the safe due to the heavier door and opening direction.

- After all is done, I would have to have a cabinet or chest built around it that matches our furniture.

- It would have to be flush to the floor for weight distribution and to be bolted down. I can do that through the cabinet I have built.



As I see it, such a safe would offer some degree of fire protection and a higher level of theft protection then the AMSEC safe above. Like the AMSEC safe, more of its theft security would rely on concealment than actual strength. At the same time, I believe that even a cheaper or smaller gun safe would offer more actual strength and security than the AMSEC one. But I do recognize that I am protecting against the “Smash-and-Grab” theft.

Don’t worry. I have other security measures – including an alarm system.

For the sake of this project, I may use one of these safes:


http://www.sentrysafe.com/products/productDetail.aspx?s=204

http://www.stack-on.com/securityplus/gun_safes/gs-16blk-cb.html

http://www.stack-on.com/securityplus/gun_safes/gs-416.html

http://www.stack-on.com/securityplus/elite/gsx-516.html



So here it is guys. What do you think of my idea, and do you have anything you’d add?

What would you do to address the logistical concerns?


Thanks!


-- John

 

[Brad Johnson]

You can achieve a pretty good fire barrier with multiple sheets of sheetrock. It's effective enought builders often use it as a fire barrier in common-wall townhomes. I supposed you could also rig up a form and line a simple metal box with aerated concrete. Maybe even expanding foam - I think you can get it in a fire-retardand formulation (don't quote me on that, though.)

I guess if you were really in a pinch you could build a metal box-in-a-box using some kind on non-flammable and low thermal conductivity spacers like firebricks, then fill the void with vermiculite. I suppose you could also use oven or grill seals for the door. You might check with your local appliance or outdoor grill center, they may have spools of generic seal and will sell you a length of it.

Brad

 

[JWarren]

Brad, thanks for the ideas. However, the reason I was looking at modifying those was due to having additional "theft" protection aspects in combination with the fire protection. The near 500 pound weight was an attractive point.


-- John

 

[Brad Johnson]

Then go the concrete route. Four inches of reinforced high-pressure concrete all the way around, including the door, will bulk it up plenty.

Also, talk to a1abdj here on THR. He sells stuff like that for a living. He might have a solution for you. I wouldn't be surprised to see him pop up on this thread at any time.

Brad

 

[JWarren]

I was rather hoping that the safes listed below the AMSEC would provide enough fire resistance with more security than the AMSEC one at a more reasonable price for what you are getting.

But your ideas are good. I've actually considered just creating the box and having a custom "vault" door built for it. It seems that a number of manufacturers are building custom doors now.

-- John

 

[Dumpster Baby]

My first thought was fake "window seat" boxes using that first horizontal safe. The cost is high, though. Fireproofing is going to cost you no matter what you do. Simple theft protection without fireproofing is a whole lot easier and cheaper to do. Consider hiding places inside furniture, like in the frame and ends of couches, false backs and bottoms of workbenches, cabinets, etc. If you have a basement with add-on metal ductwork for the furnace it's possible to install some fake short runs of ductwork with some kind of removable end plate. You're going to have to consider humidity, fire, theft, cost, size, weight, concealment, etc, and there's no simple universal answer. I use and have used (D) All The Above, and the guns I've lost in burglaries were only the ones I was too lazy to put away in a hidey hole.

 

[JWarren]

Dumbster Baby wrote:

My first thought was fake "window seat" boxes using that first horizontal safe.

The only thing is that I am going by that design only. I think the AMSEC is over-priced for the level of protection it gives. I believe it could be replicated at less (or comparable) expense with higher fire and theft protection.

Fireproofing is going to cost you no matter what you do.

One of those links I put below is "Fire" rated. I think that 1800 degrees for 30 minutes is a mininum but its a start.

Consider hiding places inside furniture, like in the frame and ends of couches, false backs and bottoms of workbenches, cabinets, etc.

Its not very conducive to the furniture that we have. Jenn just bought $17,000 of furniture. I am picturing her face if I said I wanted to cut into any if it. As far as workbenches, etc., those are all in a building outside our house. I was looking for a smaller safe that I could keep inside while larger and more secure storage is elsewhere and VERY concealed.

If you have a basement with add-on metal ductwork for the furnace it's possible to install some fake short runs of ductwork with some kind of removable end plate.

Nah... houses here don't have basements. Dunno really why. A garage I will be building next year WILL have accomidations for a vault room, however.

You're going to have to consider humidity, fire, theft, cost, size, weight, concealment, etc, and there's no simple universal answer.

Sadly, you are spot on with that assessment.



-- John

 

[Claude Clay]

-door handles designed for a balanced swinging door. probably will be stressed to dead lift the doors weight.

-handle is center mounted making leverage not good. would have to drill a couple of holes closer to the edge for heavy duty eye-bolts & internal load bearing plates. would a ceiling joist be available from which to hang a pulley? would it fit the decor? would wife allow it

-you may well now be able to dead-lift 200+ pounds (door is often 40+ % of the total weight) but if you injure one arm? or hand? become arthritic?

a good idea but the physics don't favor a modification. methinks a made-to-be is the way to go. custom outer shell-means you got a project. good luck

 

[JWarren]

Good points all, Claude.

Pulley is not an option. My wife would hurt me.

On a smaller vault... say 20" or under door, what you do think the door weight would be?

-- John

 

[Dumpster Baby]

Just remembered another handgun (and other stuff) concealment method used by the Mossad. A hollow core door has a wooden frame covered with thin panels. Mossad agents staying in a place briefly would take a knife or chisel and remove 4"-6" of the wooden crossmember at the the top of the door, exposing a cavity inside the door. They would hang guns, cameras, ID's, etc, by strings or wires from the remaining wood on either side of the slot. Who feels along the top edges of doors?

 

[RecoilRob]

Another consideration of 'modifying' a vertical standing safe to horizontal is the locking mechanism. AFAIK, the lockworks have weights that secure them properly ONLY when standing vertically....when on their sides, they are easy to get open and toppling the safe is the first attempted move of vandals. Your protection will be slight with a purposely toppled safe.

Fire safety is also more of an advertising ploy than reality IMO. Unless you are talking about a small and soon contained room fire...where the firesafe WOULD help, a total burn-down of the house would likely trash anything inside the safe anyhow. Also, firebrick has a tendency to hold moisture (which is how it provides protection) which makes rust prevention more difficult.

Was thinking that a solution might be to creatively modify one of your existing cabinets and hide the guns behind in the wall. No easy way out here for you! Good luck!

 

[NetJunkie]

Tell your wife it's your house too. Give up a wall for a safe.

 

[a1abdj]

There are two major issues to deal with when laying a regular safe on its side or back:

The doors or most safes are held on by gravity. The doors sit atop pins on the hinges, and lifting the door will remove it from the hinge. When laying on its back/side, opening the door will often cause the door to fall off. You would need to modify the hinges to make sure the door stays in place.

Secondly, you're dealing with the weight of the door. This can be engineered, as even the US Constitution used to be stored in a multi ton top loading vault. The AMSEC uses gas struts to lift and hold the door in the open position. They make struts that are more than capable of handling the weight (Think Murphy Bed), but they require some substantial structure to attach. Most gun safes are limited in this regard.

The lock and boltwork of the safe shouldn't need any modification to work on its back.

You mentioned relocating the locking function to the side of the safe. This creates all sorts of problems, but can be overcome.

I would start by calling a few local safe companies and see if anybody has any B Rate vault lockers that are large enough. These will be 1/4" bodies and 1/2" doors, and will give you a solid structure to modify.

 

[JWarren]

Thanks guys.... a LOT to think about...

a1abdj, you're the expert... question...

What is your professional opinion of that AMSEC one?


As for relocating the lock, I was thinking that I'd probably just leave it alone.

I think I have a solution to the door hinges. If I were to have a plate welded above each hinge, that would prevent slippage.

I don't know about the laying on the side thing affecting the locking mechanism though. What are your thoughts?


-- John

 

[Sage of Seattle]

Hey John! Sounds like you have a really beautiful home and I don't blame you for not wanting to F it up with a big ugly safe, but you said

A garage I will be building next year WILL have accomidations for a vault room, however.

and I'm wondering: why not just buy a regular safe and maybe throw a tablecloth over it or something similar for the year until you get that "real" vault built?

I've seen facades made for those older steam heater thingies (can't remember what they're called for some reason) and NetJunkie is right: there should be some room for compromise here with the SO.

 

[JWarren]

Hiya Sage, and thanks!

Well, Jenn isn't opposed to a safe, but the issue is that I walk through each room and realize that I can't find a single place it would "work."

And the furniture is already here... the safe isn't. So that puts me in a very weak position.

The best wall option is in our guest bedroom. Problem with that is that Jenn and I are trying to have a baby, and that will be a nursery eventually. Even mentioning putting a gun safe in the nursery makes her left eye twitch and she starts looking at me like a feral cat defending her kittens.

I frankly don't see anything wrong with having a gun safe in the nursery. I was going to use empty unprimed brass as "Mobiles" above the crib.

Jenn shakes her head alot when I start talking.


-- John

 

[MAKster]

A low priced alternative might be to buy a contractor's job box. Not as strong as the AmSec but would only cost $300. You could add dry wall for fire protection and throw a table cloth over it. While this might not be a long term solution, you could put the box to use storing tools if you upgrade later.

 

[cobrian45]

We just recently bought a home and we've been planning on where the new gun safe goes (I'm excited). The only difference is that my wife and I are both in on the decision on where it goes. There are no questions whether or not it will go. One thought that we've disposed of, but my be a thought for you is the "hidden in plain sight" idea. A piece of furniture (like an armoire) that is modified to fit over the safe, but still look like a piece of furniture. This would be a temporary thought for you until the garage vault is complete.

Don't even try with the nursery. Even as lenient as my wife is about guns and me having various gun paraphernalia spread about, the thought of anything other than nursery things in the nursery causes the same look. I think there is this inherent feeling that nurseries (no matter how big the room is) are for nursery things period. I look around and see space not being used. She is seeing more nursery space not to be used for anything but baby things.

 

[JWarren]

The only difference is that my wife and I are both in on the decision on where it goes.

I hear ya. Don't get me wrong. Jen's not a bear on this. Originally, we were both in the planning of a safe. Then the furniture got delivered.

Have you ever heard that phrase "Everyone's got a plan until they get hit?"

That's us.


This project is really just a stop-gap/ secondary storage when considering the project I have planned for next year.

We have to build a garage for the house. I am having a "Basement" built into it with "I" beam construction rafters for the basement. A concrete slab will be poured over the basement as the base for a two car garage with a storage behind it, and a workshop on a second floor. The entrance to the "Basement" will be hidden and the stairs will end with a vault door to a reinforced concrete room. I'm working out the logistics to insuring water-proofing in this low environment.

If this doesn't pan out as underground, I have other plans that are incorporated into an above-ground structure. Obviously, our alarm system will also be wired into this addition.

What this would be is storage within the house for right now.



-- John

 

[cobrian45]

My wife gave up a coat closet for my safe, which is soon to be delivered. I'm sure I'll pay in another way down the line. I'm smart enough to know it's going to happen, but dumb enough not to see it coming.

 

[JWarren]

My wife gave up a coat closet for my safe, which is soon to be delivered. I'm sure I'll pay in another way down the line. I'm smart enough to know it's going to happen, but dumb enough not to see it coming.

I love that idea. Thing is that these old houses have precious little closet space. I really don't think people wore clothes back then. And I am suppose to believe in Global WARMING? (kidding)

We have to use quite a bit of amoires for closet space. My suit closet is more closely akin to a medicine cabinet in some of your homes.


-- John

 

[JWarren]

OK... UPDATE:

I just ran my ideas by Jenn. She looked at me like I was nuts. She told me that she'd rather put the love seat in our study in our hunting camp, and get put a larger safe in the Study. I think she wants all my crap contained less it gets out and runs amok.

Anyway... problem solved. But this is still a good discussion.

I am now considering getting an unlined gun cabinet and doing the same thing at the foot of our guest bedroom bed. I could store supplies and ammunition in that.

Bahh.. haaa... haa... little did Jenn know that solving this problem give me an excuse to put TWO containers in the house!


-- John


-- John

 

[Tokugawa]

Don't forget you have 3 1/2" -4" to use inside the walls. A small safe could be recessed between the studs and a bookcase put over it on hinges. This could work particularly well as a corner cabinet idea. Or if you want to get really wacked out, build a concrete vault below the floor big enough for your safe, and lift it straight up with a screwjack or hydraulic lift!