giggitygiggity said:
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It is also amusing when I walk into certain retailers and the reps have no idea what is going on. For instance, I walked into an Academy and asked the guy about a Kimber Micro. I explained that I had read and heard from other people that the finish has issues and wears/chips easily; I asked if he had any experience with that. His reply was, "Well all guns will wear the more you use them." Thanks Einstein... I was asking whether you, as someone who works in an establishment that sells guns has experienced complaints of that pistol having finish issues. Everyone knows that the more you use something, the more, it will wear. The same rep did not know whether Academy conducted transfers nor what the price might be... seems like something that should be covered on day one for someone working behind the firearms counter.
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Seriously?
You expect a clerk at a big box to stay up on finish issues on a pretty obscure pistol?
I do 2000+ transfers a year, maybe one in the last year and a half was a Kimber Micro. It is not a hot seller by any stretch of the imagination. His answer wasn't far from what I would have said. I DON'T KNOW is a pretty honest answer. But you already KNEW the answer.
When 99.9% of your customers are buying from you as a retail store, why the heck would they really be interested in doing transfers? The answer is.....they aren't. The last time I checked was two years ago and the three Academy stores nearest me were charging $40. That should tell you how much they want to do transfers.
First, I did not say that I expected a sales clerk "to stay up o finish issues on a pretty obscure pistol"? If I ask a sales clerk and he seems like he has half a brain and tells me that he sold 100 pistols and the owners of 90 of the pistols complained that the finish chipped, that is a valuable data point. Sure, it could be a sales clerk talking out his you know what, but that is for me to gauge whether the clerk is credible.
With respect to the pistol being obscure, I would love to see concrete evidence that it is obscure. I am not debating that you do not sell many of them, but that does not automatically make it "obscure". Perhaps you sell your Micros for a ridiculous price so people rarely buy them. Perhaps people in your area do not like them. I have a hard time believing that Kimber would keep producing the Micro and national retailers would continue to stock the Micro if it sold poorly or was unpopular.
With regards to the clerk's answer, the issue I had was that he didn't simply say "I don't know." I would have been fine with that answer. The right answer is the honest answer. Instead, he gave me a useless BS answer by saying that all pistols will exhibit wear the more they are used.
With respect to the transfers, whether Academy or any other retailer is interested in conducting transfers is irrelevant. The point that I made was that at a gun counter, it is not unreasonable to expect a customer to inquire about whether transfers are conducted and the cost of the transfers. Just as I would expect a waitress to know how much the lunch special costs, I would expect an employee working behind the firearms counter to know how much a transfer costs. I agree that they probably don't like doing transfers because it takes time and they have to receive, inventory, and store firearms until the buying comes in to complete the transfer.
I interacted with a Walmart employee in sporting goods who tried to tell me that the synthetic stocked Weatherby Vanguard rifles have a much smoother action than the wood stocked Weatherby Vanguard rifles. I just let him talk... a rifle's stock does not determine its action's smoothness.
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Again, seriously?
It's WalMart.
That "associate" may have been in Electronics last week, and Grocery the week before that. If you are asking gun related questions of a WalMart employee you need to rethink your gun buying practices.
Did you think that I asked the WalMart employee a question about a gun? If you reread my post, I state that I "interacted with" the employee. So that you refrain from jumping to additional conclusions, I will expound upon the interaction. I was waiting for the manager to come so that I could buy a Weatherby rifle that I purchased. An employee asked me what I bought and when I said that I bought one of the wood stocked Weatherby rifles that was on clearance, he said that the synthetic stocked Weatherby rifles were more accurate. I immediately knew that he was full of hot air. We chatted about firearms for another few seconds and he went about his business. Additionally, I would caution you about being biased towards employees of major retailers. My experience is that most of them have little to no knowledge about firearms, but that does not necessarily mean that every employee lacks firearms knowledge. What if a gunsmith with 40 years of experience lost his job and was hired to work at the firearms counter at a big box store? It all goes back to having the intuition to determine whether or not the employee knows what he is talking about.
I am also intrigued when shops try to make a quick buck off of customers. For instance, I bought a suppressor recently. One of my trustees went to a shop with one of Silencer Shop's kiosks to submit his fingerprints, etc. The shop was not the one that would be conducting the transfer so Silencer Shop allows the shop to charge up to $40 per customer for use of the kiosk. In my experience, most shops do not charge anything as use of the kiosk does not require the labor and time of their employees. In this instance, the shop wanted $40. My trustee left... $40 for the customer to push buttons and do everything himself. I could see $5 or $10 as a minor convenience charge, but $40 is ridiculous and greedy. That shop lost a potential customer by trying to make a quick $40 (and possibly more customers as I tell the story).
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1. Kiosks ain't free. Do you work for free?
I have yet to have a kiosk user do the fingerprint scan correctly by himself. They don't read the instructions, don't pay attention to the prompts and are confused about the process entirely. This requires me to assist, which I'm glad to do, but it is far from "...does not require the labor and time..." you stated.
2. Your experience is opposite of mine. All the other Powered By dealers with a kiosk in my area charge $40 for non customers. (I charge $20)
3. That shop didn't lose a customer....they never had him. Would Burger King give you a free refill on your McDonalds drink purchase?
4. Why didn't your RP go to one of the shops that doesn't charge for use of their kiosks? You seem to think they are all over.
5. Why the heck would you submit your initial Form 4 with more than one responsible person? More RP's, more time, more problems.
1. I understand that "kiosks ain't free." I do not work for free. Well my responsible persons and I must be much better at using the kiosk than every user that you encountered because none of my responsible persons nor myself had issues. That is a fair point that incompetent users may consume the time and labor of employees. However, if you read what I wrote, I was stated "In my experience, most shops do not charge anything as use of the kiosk does not require the labor and time of their employees." They key being that I qualified the statement by stating "in my experience." That said, I will cede that there are likely instances, similar to your experience, in which customers do require help with operating the kiosks.
2. Different locations and markets yield different costs for everything.
3. I did not describe my responsible person as a "customer." I described him as a "potential customer." Perhaps your mindset is different from mine, but if someone would be to walk into my shop, I would view them as a potential customer and treat him kindly with the hope that he will want to do business with me whether it be then or in the future. I do not know what to make of the Burger King and McDonald's drink purchase hypothetical question other than it seems like a poor attempt at parallel reasoning.
4. Indeed, my RP went to one of the shops that does not charge for use of their kiosk. I did not say that free kiosks are "all over." I said that "In my experience, most shops do not charge anything..." for use of their kiosks. I suggest you read more closely and refrain from misconstruing posts.
5. I have a trust with more than one responsible person. The trust was drafted by a lawyer and vice adding and deleting responsible persons (requiring me to contact the lawyer and pay fees to make the changes), I would rather go through the one-time pain of getting all the info scanned into Silencer Shop so that future purchases can be as easy as they were pre 41F. And yes, I know that there are other options for trusts (ones you can draft and/or modify yourself or use single shot trusts, etc) and perhaps those may be useful.
When I go to shops, I want to be welcome, valued, and that my patronage is important; I should not feel like the shop is doing me any favors. I want the prices to be fair. I do not want to feel like the shop is being greedy by charging a lot for simple services (transfers, Silencer Shop kiosk use, etc). The good thing is that there are so many options now... if a shop is not in line with what I am looking for, I'll gladly take advantage of capitalism and take my business elsewhere.
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Good luck.
That's why I started this business. I was unhappy with how local gun stores and my previous kitchen table dealer were handling transfers. Ten years later, I'm averaging 2,000 transfers a year and around 200 NFA transfers or sales a year. He's out of the business.
Your comment "charging a lot for simple services (transfers, Silencer Shop kiosk use, etc)…." is interesting.
How do you know they are simple?
Have you ever been a gun dealer or managed a small business?
How much time is involved in conducting a transfer?
Do you think the five minutes it takes to fill out the Form 4473 is all the time the dealer spends on your transfer?
What's the monthly rental on a Silencer Shop kiosk?
How many transfers a month does it take to cover the insurance on the customers firearms I am possessing?
How much is insurance on a $17,000 machine gun?
What is a reasonable or in your words "fair" price for a machine gun transfer? A silencer transfer? a shotgun, rifle or handgun transfer?
Are computers, a fax machine, internet service, electricity, etc free in your new location?
It's not so simple is it?
I know they are simple because I know what goes into the services. If you want something that is complicated, try studying thermodynamics or higher level physics. No, I have never been a gun dealer, but I have a small business. I have also lead 100+ man organizations. I am not sure if you're looking to say something to the effect of "well you've never been a gun dealer so you don't know what goes into it" or if you have genuine curiosity. However, I will say that while experience definitely aids in understanding the ins and outs of a profession or process, it is not required. The amount of time involved in conducting a transfer is dependent on a number of factors... competence of the employee, whether a customer makes a mistake on the form, whether there are NICS issues, etc. And no, filling out the 4473 is not the only thing involved with the transfer (receipt of firearm, logging of firearm, contacting customer to pick up, filling out 4473, etc). I do not know the monthly rental rate on a Silencer Shop kiosk. How is that relevant? Whether it is $1 or $1000 a month, the key factors are how much business the kiosk generates and what people are willing to pay if you charge for its use. The number of monthly transfers to cover insurance of customers' firearms in possession varies wildly depending on the value of the firearms, the insurance company, the insurance policy, etc. A $17,000 machine gun's insurance again depends largely on your insurance policy.
A fair price for an NFA transfer is $75 or less. A fair price for long guns and pistol transfer are $25 or less per item or $40 if multiple items are being transferred simultaneously. That said, those prices are my opinion and based on my experience and the gun markets near me. Economics always play a role in determining price. Some THR members may live in areas where $25 per item is expensive while others find it to be a steal. Of course computers, internet, etc are not free in my new location.
All of the questions and considerations that you mentioned are simple. How much does it cost to run my business, what do I need to charge to run a profitable business, are my customers willing to pay what I charge? These are the questions that must be answered and that I think some gun shop owners do not always answer honestly. While there are "behind the scenes" requirements that incur costs, ultimately the customer needs to feel that he received a service. One can moan about how expensive insurance is, how it takes time to receive and log guns bought by customers online, etc. However, from the customer's perspective, all he cares about is what his fee got him.
