Gun show loophole?

[dogtown tom]

"clarifies that definition"?!??! No, not at all. That's what the press says. That's what the ATF says but it's far from the truth. This new announcement is extremely vague! How many guns can you sell before you must register as an FFL? One a year? Ten a year? The ATF is vague as always. That's a huge problem with this new "definition".

Laws must be specific so you know exactly what you can do and what you can't do. But the ATF doesn't and can't make laws. They make "definitions" that change on a whim.

ATF has never set a specific number of guns that can be sold before you are considered a dealer. Again, never. Thats because no federal law states such a number.
The ATF instead says its a pattern of behavior that is an indicator that a person is dealing in firearms. ie the repetitive buying and selling with the intent to profit or buying a firearm for the purpose of reselling.

And I agree with ATF, it shouldn't be a set number. If you inherit fifty guns, you should be free to get rid of those as you see fit. For any price you choose. ATF has no problem with that under current regs or this new one.

What ATF considers as "engaging in the business" is the the repetitive buying and selling of firearms without a license That isn't enhancing your collection. It is flipping guns for profit.

And no, the definitions do not change on a whim. A whim implies a sudden change, this most definitely isn't sudden. The Administrative Procedures Act is the federal law that has requirements on how a federal regulatory agency implements new regulations.

And for goodness sakes.......an FFL is CHEAP. For an 01FFL Dealer its a whopping $200 for your first three years and after that $90 for each succeeding three year period. Yeah, $30 freaking dollars a year. But the downside for those gun show flippers is they will have to start keeping records and running NICS on buyers. That might cut into sales.

 

[Balrog]

ATF has never set a specific number of guns that can be sold before you are considered a dealer. Again, never. Thats because no federal law states such a number.
The ATF instead says its a pattern of behavior that is an indicator that a person is dealing in firearms. ie the repetitive buying and selling with the intent to profit or buying a firearm for the purpose of reselling.

And I agree with ATF, it shouldn't be a set number. If you inherit fifty guns, you should be free to get rid of those as you see fit. For any price you choose. ATF has no problem with that under current regs or this new one.

What ATF considers as "engaging in the business" is the the repetitive buying and selling of firearms without a license That isn't enhancing your collection. It is flipping guns for profit.

And no, the definitions do not change on a whim. A whim implies a sudden change, this most definitely isn't sudden. The Administrative Procedures Act is the federal law that has requirements on how a federal regulatory agency implements new regulations.

And for goodness sakes.......an FFL is CHEAP. For an 01FFL Dealer its a whopping $200 for your first three years and after that $90 for each succeeding three year period. Yeah, $30 freaking dollars a year. But the downside for those gun show flippers is they will have to start keeping records and running NICS on buyers. That might cut into sales.

What does repetitive mean? once a year? once a month? once a week?

 

[dogtown tom]

What does repetitive mean? once a year? once a month? once a week?

It means what it means. Malinowski didn't believe that.

 

[Balrog]

It means what it means. Malinowski didn't believe that.

So its relative. There is no legal definition?

 

[.455_Hunter]

I would assume that selling guns via consignment at your LGS FFL absolves an individual of any scrutiny in the eyes of this rule modification?

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

I would assume that selling guns via consignment at your LGS FFL absolves an individual of any scrutiny in the eyes of this rule modification?

Probably since they are an FFL and acting as your agent for the sale.

 

[dogtown tom]

So its relative. There is no legal definition?

No, the common definition applies.
Again, ATF has historically held that its not the number of firearms, but the behavior.

 

[dogtown tom]

I would assume that selling guns via consignment at your LGS FFL absolves an individual of any scrutiny in the eyes of this rule modification?

Addressed on page 10: Questions and Answers: Final Rule 2022R-17F

 

[Sniper66]

Of course the end goal for anti-gunners is UBCs. Once that is established, the ATF will be able to write the rules as they see fit and (as it is done with the use of the FISA court, the DOJ, the FBI, etc.,) selectively use the rules against people they don't like.

 

[Elkins45]

Addressed on page 10: Questions and Answers: Final Rule 2022R-17F

I made the mistake of dropping in over at barfcom where I was told that I must obtain an FFL in order to trade a gun with an FFL and that all private sales are now illegal.

I should start selling pearls, since so many people apparently love to clutch them.

 

[JTHunter]

Just look at it for what it actually is - yet another "infringement" so the elitists can disarm the general populace.

 

[dogtown tom]

Of course the end goal for anti-gunners is UBCs.

Not even close. UBC just mean everyone has a BG check before the gun is transferred.

The end goal is total disarmament.

Once that is established, the ATF will be able to write the rules as they see fit and

Huh? UBC's would require a law. If Congress passes such a law it isn't ATF we need to worry about.

(as it is done with the use of the FISA court, the DOJ, the FBI, etc.,) selectively use the rules against people they don't like.

"Like" has nothing to do with it.

 

[natman]

And for goodness sakes.......an FFL is CHEAP. For an 01FFL Dealer its a whopping $200 for your first three years and after that $90 for each succeeding three year period. Yeah, $30 freaking dollars a year. But the downside for those gun show flippers is they will have to start keeping records and running NICS on buyers. That might cut into sales.

It's not the cost of the FFL. It's being able to get one.

Q – Given that firearms transactions can originate from anywhere in the United States, must a dealer have a fixed premises to buy and sell firearms?
A – Yes. Regardless of where a dealer buys and sells firearms, or through which medium, in order to obtain a license under the GCA, a dealer must still have a fixed premises in a particular state from which to conduct business subject to the license. They must also still comply with all applicable state and local laws regarding the conduct of such business. 18 U.S.C. § 923(d)(1)(E), (F); 27 CFR 478.47(b). [emphasis added]

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/finalrule2022r-17f-questionsandanswerspdf/download

What this means in practice is that in addition to the federal government, you have to get approval from the city, county and state to "run a business" out of your home. In some places that may be easy if you live out in the country in unincorporated land. In my case it would mean that I would have to get a city business license, as if I were actually having customers come up to my house, even if I planned to sell online or at gun shows. Getting the city business license costs $100 a year. It also requires notifying all the neighbors in a hundred yard radius about the "gun store" about to open in their neighborhood. In my suburban California subdivision that would have lead to a crowd storming my house carrying torches and pitchforks. Not to mention a state license (Certificate of Eligibility) that costs $71 initially and $22/year, plus a lot of sales tax recordkeeping and paperwork.

The Gun Control Act was passed in 1968, and the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act modified it in 1986. Since then, there have been significant advancements in manufacturing (e.g., 3D printing) and distribution technology (e.g., Internet), and changes in the marketplace and products (e.g., large-scale gun shows). These have increased the ways in which individuals shop for firearms and have therefore created a need for more clarity in the regulatory definition of “dealer” in the diverse modern marketplace, especially with the BSCA amendments to what constitutes being “engaged in the business” as a dealer. [emphasis added]

So, when Congress changed the definition of "engaging in the business" to require an FFL, they neglected to change the obsolete notion that all gun sales are done at a brick and mortar location that is the foundation of getting an FFL.

 

[Sniper66]

Gubmnt passed laws many years ago requiring a location seperate from your home; this to get rid of as many "kitchen table" FFL gun dealers as possible. Such laws were to make it easier for the ATF to police them. Prior to that, friends of mine, retiring police officers, would get the FFL to make it easier to acquire firearms at more affordable wholesale prices. I bought a couple of guns back then from them and accessories like scopes. Wholesalers sent catalogues to them. Now, of course, lots of guys have FFLs and do transfers as well as receive guns ordered on the internet. I've purchased a few guns this way. I frankly do not know what local rules might apply. What I've been told by a number of FFL holders is that the ATF can arrive at your door at any time and demand all your records. They come down hard on any "infraction", even typos like a transposed number, no matter how small. To me the question arises, Why would anyone set themselves up for such unforgiving govt scrutiny?

 

[dogtown tom]

It's not the cost of the FFL. It's being able to get one.

And it's darn easy. As lomg as you can operate a business legally at your proposed premises....ATF mist issue you an FFL.

Q – Given that firearms transactions can originate from anywhere in the United States, must a dealer have a fixed premises to buy and sell firearms?

A – Yes. Regardless of where a dealer buys and sells firearms, or through which medium, in order to obtain a license under the GCA, a dealer must still have a fixed premises in a particular state from which to conduct business subject to the license. They must also still comply with all applicable state and local laws regarding the conduct of such business. 18 U.S.C. § 923(d)(1)(E), (F); 27 CFR 478.47(b). [emphasis added]

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/finalrule2022r-17f-questionsandanswerspdf/download

Which has been a requirement since 1968. This rule doesn't change a thing.

What this means in practice is that in addition to the federal government, you have to get approval from the city, county and state to "run a business" out of your home.

Some cities/counties/states aren't anti business.......like mine. Absolutely zero restrictions from the state of Texas or any county. Some cities may prohibit or regulate the type of "home based" businesses, mine does not.

In some places that may be easy if you live out in the country in unincorporated land.

I live in an incorporated city of almost 300,000 people, with zoning that permits pretty much any type of home based business.

In my case it would mean that I would have to get a city business license, as if I were actually having customers come up to my house, even if I planned to sell online or at gun shows.

And who's to blame for you living there?
What prevents you from moving?
I'm not going to complain about my inability to find a good mountain to ski on here in Texas or the lack of salmon in our lakes.....because I chose this place.

Always choose wisely.

Getting the city business license costs $100 a year. It also requires notifying all the neighbors in a hundred yard radius about the "gun store" about to open in their neighborhood. In my suburban California subdivision that would have lead to a crowd storming my house carrying torches and pitchforks. Not to mention a state license (Certificate of Eligibility) that costs $71 initially and $22/year, plus a lot of sales tax recordkeeping and paperwork.

California?
If you haven't figured it out by now, there's a reason companies and families are fleeing.

Don't blame ATF, blame your state.

So, when Congress changed the definition of "engaging in the business" to require an FFL, they neglected to change the obsolete notion that all gun sales are done at a brick and mortar location that is the foundation of getting an FFL.

It's not an obsolete notion because it isn't true. No federal law or ATF regulation restricts a dealer from only doing sales at his licensed premises.
And I know several Texas gun dealers that don't have a brick & mortar shop, nor do they use their home.

Federal law/ATF regs require a "licensed premises". That doesn't have to be your home or a retail storefront. You could rent a storage unit at a mini warehouse as your "licensed premises" and conduct your gun sales online or at gun shows. No customer ever appearing at your "licensed premises".

If only ATF had a Q&A on this very subject.....

 

[dogtown tom]

Gubmnt passed laws many years ago requiring a location seperate from your home; this to get rid of as many "kitchen table" FFL gun dealers as possible.

Horsehockey. Never. Happened. It's. A. Myth.
Being that there are more home based or kitchen table gun dealers than those in a brick and mortar retail storefront.........where do you get this nonsense pf "seperate from your home"?

I'm a kitchen table dealer, have been for fifteen years. My FFL was initially issued while we were living in a rented apartment waiting to move into my current home.
ATF has regulations. NEVER has there been a regulation that requires a location separate from your home. Now, your city/state/county may have such a requirement but that isn't ATF.

Such laws were to make it easier for the ATF to police them.

Uh, what?
There is no difference in how ATF regulates a home based FFL vs Academy or Bass Pro. Same regulations.

Prior to that, friends of mine, retiring police officers, would get the FFL to make it easier to acquire firearms at more affordable wholesale prices. I bought a couple of guns back then from them and accessories like scopes. Wholesalers sent catalogues to them. Now, of course, lots of guys have FFLs and do transfers as well as receive guns ordered on the internet. I've purchased a few guns this way. I frankly do not know what local rules might apply.

More than a few guys obtained their FFL never intending to actual operate a business, using it to enhance their personal collection. Never obtaining a business license or sales tax permit. Basically they lied when they submitted their application.

What I've been told by a number of FFL holders is that the ATF can arrive at your door at any time and demand all your records.

Again, horsehockey.
ATF is restricted by federal law to no more than one compliance inspection per year. The FFL agrees to cooperate with a firearm trace request when contacted by the National Tracing Center or a bona fide criminal investigation. Thats it.

Any FFL that tells you ATF can arrive at your door anytime without cause is an idiot.

They come down hard on any "infraction", even typos like a transposed number, no matter how small. To me the question arises,

When you apply for an FFL, you agree to abide by federal law and ATF regs. Part of that is keeping accurate records. A transposed number means the dealer recorded one number in his bound book and a different number on the Form 4473. Thats a violation, but correctible. That violation by itself doesn't get your FFL revoked, but if you have significant numbers of those errors then ATF will issue a warning letter, than a warning conference, then begin revocation proceedings.

Why would anyone set themselves up for such unforgiving govt scrutiny?

For the same reasons people operate any number of businesses or engage in certain occupations.
I'm a teacher, I have 100X more federal and state laws and regulations to abide by than my gun business. Then there's my local school district policy.
Ask any liquor store owner, restaurant manager, plumber, electrician, attorney, beautician or nurse if they have "government scrutiny".

 

[DeerPark]

Are there members on here that can legally buy/sell over the internet without the buyer going through a background check?

In Pennsylvania you can. Biden is from my state (please don't throw anything, I'm new here ).

The way it works in PA is that you can go online and find a rifle listed in a private forum, meet someone in person, and purchase that rifle. There's no background check or anything necessary.

The actual verbiage of the law is that the person you're selling it to has to be able to legally own it. Most folks identify this by requiring to see a license to carry upon sale.

 

[Elkins45]

In Pennsylvania you can. Biden is from my state (please don't throw anything, I'm new here ).

The way it works in PA is that you can go online and find a rifle listed in a private forum, meet someone in person, and purchase that rifle. There's no background check or anything necessary.

The actual verbiage of the law is that the person you're selling it to has to be able to legally own it. Most folks identify this by requiring to see a license to carry upon sale.

That’s not “buying a gun over the Internet.” That’s using the Internet to facilitate a legal face-to-face transaction.

That’s also not what Biden and the media want people to believe it means. They want (and have been pretty successful) people to believe I can order a Glock with just an address and a credit card and the postman will just drop it off in my mailbox.

 

[DeerPark]

That’s not “buying a gun over the Internet.” That’s using the Internet to facilitate a legal face-to-face transaction.

That’s also not what Biden and the media want people to believe it means. They want (and have been pretty successful) people to believe I can order a Glock with just an address and a credit card and the postman will just drop it off in my mailbox.

Typically most all gun control legislation get passed by people misleading others into believing things mean things they don't.

 

[P5 Guy]

FFLs love this. One I've known even pushed to have private sales banned.
Doing the transfer is an easy $50.00 for 20 minutes work.

 

[GEM]

Well, that's true. In TX, the old fudd gun store was leading the charge to get rid of the gun shows. They had FFL dealers galore and good prices. The old fudd store sold it exorbitant MSRP, higher even than the local big box sporting goods stores. Plus the nasty attitude.

 

[wayneinFL]

FFLs love this. One I've known even pushed to have private sales banned.
Doing the transfer is an easy $50.00 for 20 minutes work.

It's not so much the work they spent on the transfer. It's the missed opportunity of a purchase and sale.

This is why you need a guy who has a ffl as a hobby out of his house.

 

[natman]

It's not an obsolete notion because it isn't true. No federal law or ATF regulation restricts a dealer from only doing sales at his licensed premises.
And I know several Texas gun dealers that don't have a brick & mortar shop, nor do they use their home.

Federal law/ATF regs require a "licensed premises". That doesn't have to be your home or a retail storefront. You could rent a storage unit at a mini warehouse as your "licensed premises" and conduct your gun sales online or at gun shows. No customer ever appearing at your "licensed premises".

If only ATF had a Q&A on this very subject.....

It appears that ATF have clarified their position since I tried to get a home based FFL. That's useful information. Thanks for the update.

 

[Reloadron]

I am curious how many members here live in a state in which Biden's new purposed legislation will have ANY affect?

Are there members on here that can legally buy/sell over the internet without the buyer going through a background check? Just curious if Biden's proposal will actually do anything or if it is just the election is coming so we better make as show on gun control even if it doesn't really do anything at all?

Here I sit in the lovely Cleveland, Ohio suburbs. Yes, we have "private sales" at gun shows so what is happening will effect us here in Ohio. Well legally anyway. Now if we give this just small thought Biden is giving out feel good, do nothing legislation making it sound like this is a good thing. Same game Clinton played, just different players. If someone wants a gun for all the wrong reasons they will get a gun for all the wrong reasons. Now unless Biden and his gun grabbing friends can manage to legislate morality nothing is going to change as to preventing gun violence. Private sales and gun sales out of a trunk are not going away regardless of laws.

Just My Take....
Ron

 

[wayneinFL]

More than a few guys obtained their FFL never intending to actual operate a business, using it to enhance their personal collection. Never obtaining a business license or sales tax permit. Basically they lied when they submitted their application.

Is it legal to get a license without any intention of running a business just to sell off some of your personal collection and buy a few things? As long as you get a business license and file sales tax and income tax on it?