Guns vs. Knives

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You've got to look at it like this;

At two feet, the guy with the knife wins. At 100 feet, the guy with the gun wins.

At some point, the guy with the knife starts too far away to be reliable. This point is about 20 feet. This isn't to say all knife-guys are lethal at this distance, but that some could be. And it's better to err on the side of caution.

I don't like some of the suggestions here. Turning to run gives your back to an opponent who has a head start on you, and has a knife. Not good. Backpedalling, or side-stepping has a very high 'trip over and die' risk factor.

My personal plan of action, when confronted with an aggressive person with a knife, at this range, where retreat is not possible, is to drop into a fighting crouch and take things as they come. My reasons are two-fold: Firstly, Handguns are all but illegal in my country (Australia). The use of one for self defense is strictly prohibited. In a strange bout of insanity, our government also banned tasers, pepper spray, and even airhorns. Secondly, it's what I've been trained to do.

Twenty odd feet should be the cut-off point. Counting on drawing from a concealed position, with the adrenaline dump, and stopping the other gun in perhaps two seconds, three at the absolute most, is very very risky.

If you want to really test this out, you can't just stand there and draw as the guy with the fake knife rushes at you. The situation fails to take into account the adrenaline dump you'll be experiencing. Instead, go for a two mile run, do fiteen press ups, and immediately run the test. The shaking, weakness, loss of fine motor skills, elevated breathing and heart rate will mimic closely the state you will be in if you ever need to draw and fire like that.
 
The way i figure it is if i've gotten myself into a knife fight (if i'm using a knife or not) i'm going to get cut. The question is: you with a gun v. someone with a knife and 21 feet between you... whos going to survive? Sure, you might get hurt, but i'm willing to bet that the guy with the gun's gonna win in the long run.
 
Zen-
A trained knife fighter if you don't deflect his blow is going to get in lethal wounds within the fist two-three strike of that knife, and strikeing with the knife does not take that long. Learn how to properly deflect it with arm while the other goes for your gun. But in the long run trained knife fighter agianst someone relying solely on their gun you might take him with you but odds are he wins if you dont know how to properly deflect his knife long enough to get shots into him.
 
It is not so much that I would intend for the gun to automatically win the fight, but it will be a lot easier fending off a guy who is alreadly bleeding to death than fending off a guy with a knife who is in pefect health. My first thought will always be on where the knife is and preventing it from poking me or slicing me. I think gunfire is an excellent distraction that might even work on an experienced knife fighter.

Most badguys with knives also threaten rather than run up and carve. Robbing someone by threatening them is punished a lot less severely than murder 1.

In any case, stuff like this is diminishingly rare. The average person who would be prone to crime in Florida (perhaps a high percentage) realizes that doing a shift at walmart pays about as well as robbing someone and is less likely to get them shot. Florida criminals, like all Florida professions, are drawn from the local populace. Most of the people who are going to engage in an ultra-violent fit of stupidity are probably going to do so out of a lack of common sense rather than an overabundance of cunning and determination. If you have a brain and a gun, you are already halfway towards victory.
 
The point is not who would win, or if the attacker would die. The point is, within 21 feet (and realistically a bit more) a knife is a deadly threat. If you allow a man with a knife to launch an attack from that distance, you are probably going to be severely injured or killed.
 
If you beleive you can draw in under 2 seconds, hoslter your gun unloaded. Go for a walk in the woods with a buddy. He has a stopwatch. Let him involve you into a conversation, and when he thinks it's the right time he yells 'draw'. Then you must draw from your normal carry position in your normal clothes, and 'shoot a tree. Time stops when gun goes click. You'll be surprised!

BTW, I tried this myself, it's soemwhere between funny and scary!
 
My primary mode of carry is on my left ankle. I suspect that if a guy is 30 yards away with a knife and I'm unaware, I'm gonna get carved up like a Thanksgiving turkey. If surprised at a close distance, I'll always go for the Gerber MK II I carry on my right hip.
Biker
 
One thing to consider if someone knows how to use a knife they can cripple you pretty quick. Muscles and tendons are soft targets and if severed are useless. No muscle/tendon no arm movement.

This is an adavntage blades do have at contact distance. Pistols rely on blood loss, psychological, or CNS for stops. Knives can cripple an arm leaving it useless almost instantly. Ofcourse the cuts aren't as easy as front sight press.
 
A) Bullets are better masntoppers than knives
B) A 200 FPS knife is alot easier to get outta-the-way from than a 1400 FPS 9mm.
C) That sensei has [robably been training for several years. The average person wont have any martial arts training.
 
Lupinus:
I agree. I've trained in some martial arts techniques, and could probably deflect an incoming blow. I think its also pretty unlikely that i'm going to run into a trained knife fighter who wants to start something in a dark alley anytime soon. My point is that assuming more or less equal skilll levels, you're still going to get cut. If someone 21 feet away has a knife and i had a gun, i think the guy with the gun is gonna make it though. Cut up to all hell, probably, but i think the odds for survial are stacked in his favor.

So what if you get cut.... chicks dig scars :evil:
 
You guys should spend some time training with simuniton and knives. We had cops in class who had been through the academy. We had guys that had been in the infantry. The percentage of stopping shots they got off before an incapacitating series of stabs and slashs hit them was less than 40%. I'm not some super ninja black belt knife dualist now and I wasn't when I helped provide this training. They all knew that someone was going to attack them in the scenario. They didn't know who or how (knife, gun, club), but they did know it would be a lethal attack that they were justified in shooting to defend themselves. Over half the time they would have died from the knife attack due to the number of times they were stabbed in the chest, back and neck and from the slashing "wounds" to the neck and gun arm. Most of the time the person with the knife "died" due to gunshot (damn simunition hurts!), but not all the time and not before doing enormous damage to the student.

If I sound stident that you should not consider the gun as Harry's magic wand and that a guy with a knife can kill you it's because I've done this over and over again in training. I've even got a lovely sim scar from getting shot in the hand by a very quick guy that I didn't get to with the practice knife before he dumped 3 of 5 shots COM on me with one hitting my off hand. If you don't think I'm correct test it yourselves, but don't work from "what I've read" or "opinion" because it might cost you your life or, worse, that of a loved one.
 
bratch said:
One thing to consider if someone knows how to use a knife they can cripple you pretty quick. Muscles and tendons are soft targets and if severed are useless. No muscle/tendon no arm movement.

This is an adavntage blades do have at contact distance. Pistols rely on blood loss, psychological, or CNS for stops. Knives can cripple an arm leaving it useless almost instantly. Ofcourse the cuts aren't as easy as front sight press.
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I am not going to stand my ground against someone with a knife and try to assume some sort of target shooting stance while they are cutting me. I will backpedal the way I came and shoot as I go. The thing that sucks about melee weapons is that when people run, they dont die tired- THEY LIVE! You have to catch someone and actually connect with the knife to make them die. A chicken that is 21 feet away is very far from being dinner.

This is something that would be obvious to anyone that has tried to get knife kills in an FPS. Knife hits are one stab kills in many games, but the only way you will ever get someone with a knife is if you sneak up behind them when they are distracted. The first thing anyone ever does is try to open up distance between you and get a chance to ready their weapon. If he starts running full blast, you better catch him or find a good hiding spot for when he turns around.
 
I've been following this thread with interest, and all I can say is: some of you guys are giving an awful lot of respect to the guy with the knife. I don't think it's the fact that, as Vern Humphrey correctly states,
The point is, within 21 feet (and realistically a bit more) a knife is a deadly threat.
Click to expand...
... Vern also says,
If you allow a man with a knife to launch an attack from that distance, you are probably going to be severely injured or killed.
Click to expand...
And I disagree with that. It depends solely on (1) the expertise level on the man with the knife, and (2) whether or not you are have any knowledge of, and training defending against edged weapons.

The simple fact is, there are just not a lot of people out there who train as knife fighters. For every guy who's trained in some serious discipline involving blades, there are 1000 thugs out there with cheap knives who rely entirely on the intimidation factor and their perception of their own toughness ... Which are you most likely to run into? I'd suggest that if you give any thought whatsoever to self-defense scenarios and take training in defending against edged weapons, when armed also with a firearm, you've got a very good chance against someone armed only with a blade ...
 
but the only way you will ever get someone with a knife is if you sneak up behind them when they are distracted.
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Beerslurpy, et al, that's not my personal experience. We were in the same large room. They were armed with a simunition glock. They knew someon was going to attack them. In most cases I was able to make what was considered lethal attacks with the training knife before the student could put make a stopping shot unless I intiated the attack from far enough away (more than 20 ft.). The scenarios were as realistic as the lead instructor, the other students, and I could make them. Most of the time the students (remember I've already said we had LE and former military) did not move out of the way or open distance up (many of them froze for a moment) until the second training session (when someone "failed" the scenario they always exerienced a second equivalent situation later in the day). I'll repeat, I've made several "kills" on students armed with simunition glocks in combat handgun classes using a training knife.
 
Let me add a couple of points, based on hard real-world experience (both my own, and that of my colleagues) against attackers with edged weapons.

1. A smaller, less-powerful caliber will NOT stop an attacker, most of the time. My experience dates through the 1980's and early 1990's, and I know that modern hollow-point bullet technology has improved considerably since that time frame: but I've personally witnessed over 100 armed encounters where handguns were used, and in the vast - I repeat, VAST - majority of those cases where "minor" calibers were used (up to 9mm. JHP and/or .38 Special JHP), the charging attacker was not stopped by multiple COM hits. He was able to reach the shooter and inflict severe (sometimes fatal) damage before succumbing to the shots. On the other hand, "major" calibers (.357 Magnum, .44 Special and Magnum, .45 ACP, .455 Webley) were usually (probably 75%) successful in stopping the oncoming attacker with multiple hits before he could reach the shooter - and this was irrespective of ammo type used. RN, LRN, JHP, whatever - the heavier, bigger bullet (or, in the case of the .357 Magnum, the significantly higher velocity) did the job where the lighter bullet could not.

2. In almost all cases, shooters who stood their ground and shot were also struck at least once by the attacker, even if he was dead on his feet when he did so. Shooters who shot and moved at the same time usually got off OK - unless they were using a minor caliber.

3. You can believe everything hso tells you in his posts. I know him personally, and respect his abilities. He's spot-on when he describes what's likely to happen. I've seen it confirmed in real life, and would listen very carefully when he tells you something.

Hope this helps.
 
I think the entire point is that you should be aware that a guy with a knife who is close enough is a serious threat. Be aware at the approximate distance that he will able to engage you before you can draw. And that's it. I don't believe that it makes sense to debate it in any other context.

Certianly there are numerous variables. The surface you are on, the proficency of both individuals and even the size and quality of the knife. You will never evalute every possible situation. So simply be aware of you surrounds, avoid places where people like to stick other people with knives and practice, practice, practice.

Not just drawing and shooting, but in using the weak hand to fend off an attacker. The speed rock is a very useful technique. Most civilian shooting happen in low light at close range and this a difficult way for most of us to practice with live ammo. I suppose some indoor ranges might let you dim the lights. Airsoft are decent for training and rubber knifes abound. Don't train with the same partner all the time if you can help it. Change those variables.

You can only guess at the ability of you opponent in such a situation. If you are faced with a career criminal, he makes his living at doing this and he will set all of the variables to his advantage. Chances are good he will not be alone. Want to let him and a couple of his buddies to within 20 of you before you start to draw?

I typically do not ever say a thing is ALWAYS so, but this is about as close as it gets. Distance favors the defender in just about any altercation . Do what ever it takes to keep the BG at a distance when the hair on the back of your neck raises up. Try to put something between you and him like a car or even a trash can. Don't trip over anything while trying to maintian distance, (often difficult if you are trying to go backwards). Mostly practice, practice, and practice some more.

Best of luck
 
TwoGun said:
Not just drawing and shooting, but in using the weak hand to fend off an attacker. The speed rock is a very useful technique. Most civilian shooting happen in low light at close range and this a difficult way for most of us to practice with live ammo. I suppose some indoor ranges might let you dim the lights. Airsoft are decent for training and rubber knifes abound. Don't train with the same partner all the time if you can help it. Change those variables.
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And train for the adrenaline dump. I wasn't joking when I said go for a tiring run, do some press ups and then run the test/training. The way you feel after short but vigorous exercise accurately mirrors the way you feel in a dangerous confrontation. If you don't train with this in mind, all your training will be wasted when you panic as the BG closes and cuts you to death.
 
Very interesting thread. A couple of things occured to me while I was reading this. If you're being sliced by a knife wielder it's very likely that you'll have to make contact shots, and autoloaders can fail to return to battery when there's force against the front of the slide.

So... Do people tend to push the gun against an attacker when grappling? Did the people in the training sessions discussed above do so? Does anyone train to not do so, assuming they carry autos?
 
Scenerio training .. ..

:uhoh: I have experienced some first hand training exercises like that and you ask a valid question. As another post-er suggested, get on the mats a play a little. In close quarter combat, the edged weapon within 21 feet is a very real threat. Use the backside of your forearms to block (not exposing veins) and get that gun on target fast!! Scenerio training will help duplicate duress and training under (mocked up real world) stress will reveal important characteristics that never enter your mind otherwise. Also, expect to be cut and see your blood,, this way it won't shock you into losing your focus if you do get a slice. I think most of the info you'll get on this subject from LE, former LE or people who have trained on this will not play down the threat. We've come darn close in simulating the exact drill.
 
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