I recall news within the last few years regarding countries moving to ban swords for the same reasons as firearms using the they are only meant for killing arguement. I don't remember the countries involved but Australia might have been one. I wonder where the anti's plan to stop. Will we all end up eating with nerf forks if they get their way.
Guns vs Swords
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boofus
Guest
The authentic katanas crafted by Japanese master artisans go for several thousand dollars. Great for collection pieces, but combat?
Give me a full auto registered Uzi SMG for the same price any day. Or if you're lucky enough to have the right tax status, 8-10 post sample machineguns.
Give me a full auto registered Uzi SMG for the same price any day. Or if you're lucky enough to have the right tax status, 8-10 post sample machineguns.
Kaylee
Member
Oh, entirely servicable swords can be had for a price comparable to that of a decent out-of-the-box handgun. As with custom guns, the price of custom swords can go up to, well.... whatever you can afford.
And of course (many) guns are for killing. As are (real) swords, albeit from a different technological level. But that's not a bad thing. Some people (i.e. violent criminals in the process of committing a violent crime) need killing. After that, it's just a matter of how efficiently do you wish to accomplish an unpleasant task, and at what risk to yourself?
And of course (many) guns are for killing. As are (real) swords, albeit from a different technological level. But that's not a bad thing. Some people (i.e. violent criminals in the process of committing a violent crime) need killing. After that, it's just a matter of how efficiently do you wish to accomplish an unpleasant task, and at what risk to yourself?
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
Tell you what: Swing the sword vigorously for three minute, then rest for a minute and repeat. Sometimes swing it for thirty seconds and rest for three minutes. Do that for a few hours
And yes, some historically documented battles employing the sword lasted for several days. Strength per se was not that important-granted. Stamina or endurance sure was. Side note: the Japanese are pretty fanatical record keepers. The last battle using swords during the Satsumi Rebellion had records made of the wounds received by the dead and injured. Professor Karl Friday, professor of Japanese history at UGA, has studied these records. More people were killed and injured with arrows than swords. More people were killed and injured with rocks.Sure was. You can train a serf to use a firearm effectively in a matter of weeks. It takes years to learn how to use edged weapons or archery effectively. Suddenly the serfs had a weapon which could resist their overlords...so they started killing them
I'm fortunate enough to have both but it was pure luck not gobs of money.
My Uzi is pre-1986. I've a total of $975 invested in it including cost of firearm, cost of conversion, and cost of tax stamp. I bought my katana from a WWII veteran who didn't realize what he had. Bought it around 1988 or so for $200.
WWII army mountings but I was pretty sure it was an old blade. After research I figured the blade was made around 1600. Several years ago, I had Fred Lohman fit it with reproduction traditional furniture. Fred had it appraised for me: Manufactured about 1590 according to the appraiser. Worth $4000 give or take 1K. The reproduction restoration work cost about $1500...I don't even want to think about how much genuine fittings would cost.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
The fact that the person in question survived the sword strike--that he was merely cut instead of being severed in two pieces--wasn't because the sword can't be an effective close-quarters weapon, but because the intended victim was just slightly out of range, hence he got a relatively shallow tip cut instead of being cut in half.
Inside 21 feet, person A with a holstered gun and person B with a sword in his hand, the swordsman will most likely win. Inside 15 feet, gun in hand probably wouldn't beat a sword if the swordsman was allowed to make the first move. Think Tueller drill with an extra 3 feet of reach...
Back to the original post--the sword is to the knife as the rifle is to the handgun--a much more effective and useful weapon, but not nearly as portable, hence most edged-weapon crimes are committed with concealable knives. (Not that that would stop the Australian .gov from banning swords, though.)
BTW, I have a good friend who is currently active-duty Army, holds a black belt in Isshinryu, and has studied the Japanese sword arts a bit. Once while stateside, he and his wife were awakened by a noise in the living room of their mobile home. He grabbed his katana and went to investigate, barefoot and in his underwear. The sight of a musclebound, underwear-clad martial artist swinging a katana must have put quite a fright into the burglar, because he broke the door on his way out of the trailer. My friend chased the crook quite a ways down the gravel road (still barefoot and in his underwear) before the running-for-his-life crook finally got away...wish I could have been there for that...
entropy
Member
Hmmm...sword, shotgun, or axe? I own several of each, and have practiced with them, ( Former Renaissance festie) as well as a longbow. Guess which I keep ready to defend my humble hovel?
That would be the 870, thank you very much!
BTW, the best answer to this debate was in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Also in the sequel, a good lesson. Be sure you're topped off.
The Aussie officer who survived the Samurai attack is a good reminder, also.
My Great Uncle took a samurai sword off a dead Japanese NCO after he shot him. (Not sure what with. M1? 1903A3? .45?) The NCO didn't seem to need it anymore.
BTW, I noticed that among RenFesters, that same wish to 'go back to the time of sword' was prevalent. Much as I like my swords, I'll stick to my guns. (There were a few matchlock demonstrations, and of course, what Ren Fest is complete without a cannon? )
That would be the 870, thank you very much!
BTW, the best answer to this debate was in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Also in the sequel, a good lesson. Be sure you're topped off.
The Aussie officer who survived the Samurai attack is a good reminder, also.
My Great Uncle took a samurai sword off a dead Japanese NCO after he shot him. (Not sure what with. M1? 1903A3? .45?) The NCO didn't seem to need it anymore.
BTW, I noticed that among RenFesters, that same wish to 'go back to the time of sword' was prevalent. Much as I like my swords, I'll stick to my guns. (There were a few matchlock demonstrations, and of course, what Ren Fest is complete without a cannon?
)Flying V
Member
I've seen a video of someone using a reproduction European longsword to bisect a deer carcass through the ribcage with a single blow.
Kamicosmos
Member
You guys obviously haven't played Unreal Championship 2 on the XBox yet!
They have swords, axes, staves and hammers to use in addition to rocket launchers, flak cannons, bio-rifles, and rivet guns.
(To keep on the topic, when I studied Medival History, I learned that most combatants in sword fights died of concussions, brusies, broken bones, etc. Not from being 'run through'. A sword was basically used as a very expensive club. Much like an unloaded musket a few decades later).
They have swords, axes, staves and hammers to use in addition to rocket launchers, flak cannons, bio-rifles, and rivet guns.
(To keep on the topic, when I studied Medival History, I learned that most combatants in sword fights died of concussions, brusies, broken bones, etc. Not from being 'run through'. A sword was basically used as a very expensive club. Much like an unloaded musket a few decades later).
woerm
Member
endurance
Byron,
amen to the endurance part,
at an SCA battle one time the folks laid on for most of the day (or so it seemed to me) my left arm felt like I had been doing onehanded marine pushups. and I was only 'alive' for the first half of the carnage (I wound up crowd marshalling the rest of the day). I made the mistake of draggin a big shield along but couldn't get a proper shield wall organized. I fight south paw to get a better angle on most of my opposition. I thought sitting at the left of a shield wall would be a juicy tatical spot. bzzzt another southpaw waltzed up and 'carved' me off of the line
I did the IFGS stuff for a while in the late 80's the swords were lighter but the game system seriously underplayed the effect of massed archery.
in either event just carrying a 2 or 3 pound 2 to 3 ft long stick and your water/rations etc is a workout all by itself. there is a reason the knights had squires etc.
the fencing/IFGS ect is fun but it takes alot of practice to get good.
r
(r looking at High fantasy info on another gaming system)
Byron,
amen to the endurance part,
at an SCA battle one time the folks laid on for most of the day (or so it seemed to me) my left arm felt like I had been doing onehanded marine pushups. and I was only 'alive' for the first half of the carnage (I wound up crowd marshalling the rest of the day). I made the mistake of draggin a big shield along but couldn't get a proper shield wall organized. I fight south paw to get a better angle on most of my opposition. I thought sitting at the left of a shield wall would be a juicy tatical spot. bzzzt another southpaw waltzed up and 'carved' me off of the line
I did the IFGS stuff for a while in the late 80's the swords were lighter but the game system seriously underplayed the effect of massed archery.
in either event just carrying a 2 or 3 pound 2 to 3 ft long stick and your water/rations etc is a workout all by itself. there is a reason the knights had squires etc.
the fencing/IFGS ect is fun but it takes alot of practice to get good.
r
(r looking at High fantasy info on another gaming system)
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
I've got extreme reservations about the Tueller drill. I'm not that fast. And I have no formal training with a handgun at all. At the time the following occurred'; I did have several years of training in several martial arts.
I was in a man's workshop discussing with him the imminent repossession of his washing machine due to non-payment. Everything about the discussion had been amiable up to the point that he grabbed a concealed sledge hammer handle. It was laying on the top of a wheeled tool cabinet at about wasit height and was laying behind a row of sacks of nails. We were four feet apart. He grabbed the hammer handle and stepped towards me to descend upon the top of my head. But then he had two problems: the first was that I was no longer there as I had slid my right leg to my right oblique and followed the slide with my entire body...so I was far enough out of reach that he was going to have to take another pretty big step to get in range. The second problem was that as I was sliding back about three feet; I was also clearing my sports coats in what was obviously the draw of a handgun. I had unsnapped the thumb latch when he realized what was happening. He ran the steps through his head and realized that about half way through his next step...I was going to begin shooting him. He dropped his weapon. When he stopped his attack; I stopped my defense. We continued our amiable discussion, I got my washing machine, and went home.
This was an attack with no warning from four feet. And I beat it handily. And I'm not above average in speed. I think the Tueller drill assumes that you are just going to stand there and try to draw. I'm not. I'm going to get off the line of attack while I'm drawing. And if you think you're going to reach me in time...you'd best be in above 99 percentile in the speed department. You don't have to draw faster...you just have to get out of the way of the attack.
Gordon Fink
Member
Good points on endurance, but they’re overplayed. Historically, the sword was most often a sidearm and rarely used as a primary weapon in pitched battle. If you run around waving a two-pound handgun all day, I predict you will be just as tired as if you had done the same with a two-pound sword. (I’m sure lugging around an eight-pound rifle or pike is even more tiring, either way.) In reality most combat with sidearms is over in a matter of minutes, if not seconds.
~G. Fink
~G. Fink
MilsurpShooter
Member
Glocker
Member
guns can also be a work of art ( in my book ) as for me i'll take the gun over a sword any day. if i can't have the gun them i'll take a cold steel knife.
Cosmoline
Member
If there's some loon running around with a drawn SWORD in his hand, I will have my handgun out long before 21 feet. Even in Spenard that's not something you see everyday. Running around with a drawn sword is nature's way of saying "I'm a loon!"
tracing history from rock to stick to sword to firearms to artilary to aircraft to atomic bombs is to trace the history of the tools of warfare. All these tools and technology are not exlusive to warfare. but when man or a country gets it in his mind to attack his enemy he would be foolish to not take the best available tool. shaolin warriors didn't use swords and sticks to be traditional or stylish. They used them because rifles and pistols where not available. :banghead:
Let me guess.... your friend probaly thinks:
Anti-Freeze, Fire Poker, Matches are killing tools as well? Or only when intended to be?
Guns are not made for killing. They CAN kill but it's the person who pulls the trigger that really kills that person.
If someone gets stabbed with a butter knife.. should we say butter knives are killing weapons? Of course not.
Whoever think that are utterly ****** in the head.
People kill People, not guns.
Anti-Freeze, Fire Poker, Matches are killing tools as well? Or only when intended to be?
Guns are not made for killing. They CAN kill but it's the person who pulls the trigger that really kills that person.
If someone gets stabbed with a butter knife.. should we say butter knives are killing weapons? Of course not.
Whoever think that are utterly ****** in the head.
People kill People, not guns.
El Tejon
Member
Bryon, I'm with you on being gassed after sword practice. Monday we did line drills and reviewed 2 sword forms at medium speed. I was panting, and we use weenie training swords.
I remember reading "People" right before Troy was released and Brad Pitt said that if you really wanted to get buff just swing a sword around all day!
I remember reading "People" right before Troy was released and Brad Pitt said that if you really wanted to get buff just swing a sword around all day!
I get that occasionally, too. My reply goes along this line.
Its not true. Only a small fraction of 1% of all guns in the USA are ever used in a crime. Only a small fraction of those wind up killing someone. Guns are for:
-Skeet
-Trap
-Sporting Clays
-Upland game
-Waterfowling
(and that's just shotguns)
-Cowboy Action Shooting
-IDPA
-IPSC
-CCW (which is defensive and in 90% of cases, a deterrent without a shot fired)
(and that's just handguns)
-Silhouette
-Benchresting
-3-Gun
-Plinking
-Varmiting
-Big-game hunting
And just general collecting.
And I'm sure I've left some off. Memorize this list and use it next time someone tells you guns are for killing.
HI express
Member
Please tell your friend
...that this old dog who had been in the unarmed martial arts for 46 years suggests that he quit watching those old Hollyweird and chop sockey movies. Those fights are choreographed and they go over and over again the step by step sequence of the fight...therefore it looks good.
Having a sword for self-defense is romantic, but it is like unarmed self-defense, when the sh&t hits the fan, you will get hurt. The other guy might be better than you, he might have a better weapon than you, he might have more guys that are willing to kick your behind...than you do. Taking on multiple fighters means everybody gets hurt.
I was getting training by Bruce Lee...this after I was already had black belts in two other styles...and his answer in response to multiple attackers in a real fight? Use a gun.
Ever get in a kendo match? Escrima match? See the results? Broken thumbs, broken collar bones, etc., etc.
Getting killed is one thing...being maimed for the rest of your life by a blade is not romantic.
There was a sequence of pictures shown by a THR member some years back. He showed the results of a knife fight with each other...both participants were severly cut with ghastly knife cuts all over their body...how about pain the rest of your life?
Going back to swords? Do more research about people who have been on the receiving end. Search some of the THR and TFL files...I don't think your friend would like to go back to the sword days after that.
...that this old dog who had been in the unarmed martial arts for 46 years suggests that he quit watching those old Hollyweird and chop sockey movies. Those fights are choreographed and they go over and over again the step by step sequence of the fight...therefore it looks good.
Having a sword for self-defense is romantic, but it is like unarmed self-defense, when the sh&t hits the fan, you will get hurt. The other guy might be better than you, he might have a better weapon than you, he might have more guys that are willing to kick your behind...than you do. Taking on multiple fighters means everybody gets hurt.
I was getting training by Bruce Lee...this after I was already had black belts in two other styles...and his answer in response to multiple attackers in a real fight? Use a gun.
Ever get in a kendo match? Escrima match? See the results? Broken thumbs, broken collar bones, etc., etc.
Getting killed is one thing...being maimed for the rest of your life by a blade is not romantic.
There was a sequence of pictures shown by a THR member some years back. He showed the results of a knife fight with each other...both participants were severly cut with ghastly knife cuts all over their body...how about pain the rest of your life?
Going back to swords? Do more research about people who have been on the receiving end. Search some of the THR and TFL files...I don't think your friend would like to go back to the sword days after that.
entropy
Member
Sadly, DavidK76, you are wrong. People kill guns all too often.
As a gunsmith, I see far too much of it. Unfortunately, the first part of your statement is correct; people kill people, far too often, and for increasingly idiotic reasons it seems.mustanger98
Member
I've heard from a Vietnam vet who witnessed several knife fights- he said some of those fights the winner and loser were determined by who died first, usually separated by 5-10 minutes.
Forget swords. Like I always say, somebody comes after me with a knife, sword, machete or bayonet, or any other weapon, they ain't gettin' that close. That's what the .45's for, assuming I'm not carrying a rifle right then.
Forget swords. Like I always say, somebody comes after me with a knife, sword, machete or bayonet, or any other weapon, they ain't gettin' that close. That's what the .45's for, assuming I'm not carrying a rifle right then.
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