Had to draw my weapon for the first time.

[mbt2001]

And you would go to jail.

How do you figure? Two people gain entry to your house, you shoot them, while not being the advisable course in every situation, I don't see how you could go to jail.

Certainly not in Texas... The castle law, among others would preclude a person from being prosecuted unless you enticed them there or there is something more to the story, which in this case there isn't...

I don't advocate shooting like that, but when the OP referenced "A MAN CAME OUT FROM THE KITCHEN" I could imagine the surprise and change of circumstance could lead some people to fire...

Again, I think it was handled fine, should have called the police but there you go...

 

[Geno]

If I have been in the situation, seeing the girl at a slight distance would have alarmed me, and bring my pistol from 45 degrees to dead-on! I have no idea if I would have fired. I wasn’t there. I mean, if she’s 6’4” and 350 pounds, I’m firing. If she’s 4’11” and 85 pounds, she could still shoot your butt. Can you say Bonnie and Clyde?! It depends on circumstances. I know that sounds nondescript. What I mean by circumstances, is that the boyfriend walked out of the kitchen...oh Hades no!!! Now you have two perps in the house?! Oh Hades no!!!

For what it's worth, and that's for you to decide, I carry significantly more firepower 24/7 even at home, on my body. At minimum I carry a Glock 17 or G19 with 18 rounds of 9mm Win Ranger, and a G26 on my ankle. Sometimes I carry my Glock 21SF with 14 rounds of .45 ACP Win Hollow defense rounds, and the G26. Sometimes I carry one of my Colt 1911s in .45 ACP, and my G26. Get the point…two pistol, one low if you’re tackled. IMHO, pack that .380 in your pants' leg, and get a more serious pistol. Also, get a holster. Keep the pistol on your body 24/7, except for when you shower or are in-bed. Leads to my next point.

My greater concern revolves situational awareness and preparedness. It concerns me that you had to get your gun before defending yourself. Frankly, you're lucky to be alive. Face it, they penetrated your apartment unheard. They could just as easily have shot the back of your head. I don't mean to be offensive. But, I would rather be direct, and have you think about the implications, than read tomorrow that you were killed. Remember pay-backs. For these next few weeks, you durned sure better make sure that door is locked.

To the next point, forget memory. Go buy an automatic-locking doorknob. Back up that lock with a good deadbolt. Then, if you forget to lock the deadbolt, you're still secured by the autolock. Because you tend to forget, carry a spare key around your neck.

Last, get yourself into a Tactical Shooting class. Mental rehearsal won't cut it. Frankly, you were wide-open when perp #2 stepped out of the kitchen. Had he possessed a firearm, he'd have nailed you before you nailed him. Learn to move to cover; learn to fire accurate shots while on the move to cover. You froze. Here’s a hint: what do most people do in a defensive situation when their magazine goes empty? They stop on the spot and reload. That makes a dandy target for the perps. Wrong answer! Drop the mag as you move; reload as you move; keep firing as you move. Praying as you move couldn’t hurt, but may not help.

Re: the expense of a more powerful pistol, a Tactical Shooting course and consistent practice, I simply respond, your life and your girlfriend's life are worth it. The last point, I am so glad that you are both alive and well. This is a fantastic thread, and I am very pleased that you are willing to share it. We all need reminders, even (or especially) me. Such threads help to remind me to keep myself sharp.

Remember, my opinion is just that. My opinion. While I have had around 10 Tactical Shooting and Advanced Tactical Shooting courses, I still have no idea how I would have reacted in your boots, inside the house. I know how I reacted at 17 years old while working on my car, a rifle at my side…but inside of your own home, frankly, that is an even higher standard. Even greater threat. I'll let you know how you did after I've walked a mile in yours shoes. It’s not that I think you did poorly. I admire your outcome. I simply feel we all should persistently strive to improve and develop exceptional situational awareness, backed-up by exceptional tactical shooting ability. I hope I was not too harsh or too critical in my views.

Doc2005

 

[astrolite]

Thanks for the insight every one.

As for the Walther not being enough firepower, that is arguable - I also have a Springfield XD 9 loaded and chambered in my bedroom. In the office I also have a 12 gauge saiga-12 (w/ the tromix-type mods) and a 10 round (loaded) magazine that are easily accessible. On top of that I have an AR-15 with a couple of loaded magazines within easy access range. I also have a .45, but it is much less accessible.

I just picked up the Walther as it was the most convenient and accessible in my immediate area. I am a damned good shot with it too.

I really wasn't expecting them, so the rational side of me (who would ever just walk in my place? ha!) convinced myself I didn't need any serious firepower and that I was just paranoid.

I think the situation would've been more dire had I been asleep, in a dark house, and people had entered (I lock the door before I sleep though...). I think I would have dialed the police in one hand with my 9mm pointed at the door with my other. Any entry would've felt very threatening to me.

I am glad that was not the situation, very very glad.

 

[Geno]

Self-disclosure time:

I am the victim of a break-in (technically an unlawful entry and home theft) when I was about 8 years innocent. How? My father didn't lock the door. Perhaps that influences how I think re preparing and reacting. Neither I, nor my wife, nor my innocent 14-year-old child will ever be threatened the way I was that day!

We live and we learn, or we don't learn and we die. I learned, and I applied what I learned recently when I reacted to someone messing with the front door, which I perceived to be an attempted B&E. It is posted here at THR, under the title "Lock, Lock, Who's There?" Some may think my reaction drastic, but whomever it was is fortunate to have not gained entry.

Doc2005

 

[Eyesac]

Glad you're ok, good job, good thread!

 

[Leanwolf]

"A very quick moment later a MAN appears from my kitchen!"

First, hindsight is always 20/20 vision.

That said, Old Guy mentioned that "stuff" in the kitchen can be used as weapons. Very. Deadly. Weapons. (I've seen a couple of people who were killed by thugs using kitchen knives. Not pretty!!!!)

Therefore, if it were I, the instant someone appears from the kitchen, I'm thinking KNIVES!

Just because you saw his hands, did not mean the guy had not stuck one of your butcher knives in his waistband or under his jacket, or up his sleeve.

I would have immediately demanded he and his girl friend (accomplice?) turn around and prone out on the floor. That way, they can not jump you.

If a phone were not nearby, scream for your girlfriend to get up and call the police.

Others here have given good advice... but don't ever forget that virtually all kitchens, including your kitchen, contain easily accessible deadly weapons.

Glad neither you nor your girlfriend were hurt.

L.W.

 

[Geno]

Leanwolf:

Re: kitchen knives, and forcing the perps to the floor, can you refresh my memory regarding distance covered by a perp, and the time/shots needed to "stop the attack"? When I had one of the Advanced Tactical Courses, I believe the instructor (a 27-year S.W.A.T. Director) said that if someone had a knife pulled at less than 43 feet, and we didn't fire, that the perp would have time to cover the distance and stab before dying. I don't have my notes from the course in front of me to check the distance.

Doc2005

 

[Kleanbore]

I would have detained and called the police to do the fact-checking.

Detain? Check the law first. In many if not most places, citizens may not do so. Consequences can be very serious indeed.

Call the police? Absolutely.

And you would go to jail [if you shot them]. Certainly not in Texas... The castle law, among others would preclude a person from being prosecuted unless you enticed them there or there is something more to the story, which in this case there isn't...

Careful there . The Castle Law in Texas (according to lawyer's websites) says you need not retreat and can use deadly force if necessary to protect yourself in your house, place of business, or car, where necessity may be evidenced by unlawful, forceful entry. Also shields you from civil liability. Shooting someone with raised hands who is unarmed, who did not threaten you, is not attacking you or stealing something, and who has not broken in might well get you locked up.

Shoot three unarmed people and there is an extremely high probability that at least one will survive. No evidence of forced entry and their word against yours... Think about it.

Here's the law itself.

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/80R/billtext/html/SB00378F.htm

 

[rondog]

Y'all do what you want to do. If I'm surprised by two strangers in my house in the night, my first reaction will be to shoot them, period. I'm not asking them about their intents or if they're armed, or if they're high, or if the door was unlocked. At that moment, they're threats.

 

[cvb]

get a dog

a small dog couldve extended your safety zone. Good story, glad youre okay.

 

[Geno]

rondog said:

Y'all do what you want to do. If I'm surprised by two strangers in my house in the night, my first reaction will be to shoot them, period. I'm not asking them about their intents or if they're armed, or if they're high, or if the door was unlocked. At that moment, they're threats.

Odd, that's precisely what Michigan's Castle Doctrine (now legislated) says. It sure beats having to die to show self-restraint, doesn't it?

cvb said:

a small dog couldve extended your safety zone. Good story, glad youre okay.

Oh yeah. My daughter bought a Teacup Chihuahua. The dog will bark once or twice at an animal. Then stands and watches. With a humanoid, she goes spastic and refuses to stop. She is the best guard dog I've seen yet. All I need is to be alerted.

 

[deaconkharma]

good handling of the issue

you left the door unlocked, in the back of your mind you knew that variable might cause you grief with the jury later so you restrained yourself. right or wrong you maybe in the back of your mind felt you had equal culpability. (I have walked into the wrong apartment by accident myself although realized two feet into the apartment and bowed out sorta gracefully- but the lights were on)
here's your follow up
A) Check on the address given and use the neighborly sorry I scared you or something (check out the story)
B) +1 on get a dog, dogs save lives, especially when we "forget something".
C)Make sure GF gets something out of that experience and becomes your backup if there is some type of "next time".
D) (Optional?)yes contact the cops if you are sure you won't get any blowback out of this. Also might be nice to file a report before a conflicting report from TWO people is filed that may sound different than YOUR account. Faulty lock, now "repaired", or a better way of wording than oops I forgot, something like wardrobe malfunction etc (you get the idea)---but don't let me advocate falsifying documents, just find a way to minimize that detail of the lock.

 

[Leanwolf]

DOC 2005 - " ...can you refresh my memory regarding distance covered by a perp, and the time/shots needed to "stop the attack"? When I had one of the Advanced Tactical Courses, I believe the instructor (a 27-year S.W.A.T. Director) said that if someone had a knife pulled at less than 43 feet,..."

Doc, when I learned it at an LEO Academy, we were taught, and trained at 21 feet. If the bad guy is holding a knife and begins his run at 21 feet, if you're handgun is in its holster, it is almost impossible to draw, aim, and fire, before the bad guy cuts you. That assumes he's coming at you full bore.

Doesn't mean your instructor was wrong. Just means that is the way we were trained.

I know of one incident that happened in a beach city in Calif., where a bad guy waving a knife was coming toward an officer. The officer saw him at about 50 feet, so witnesses stated. The bad guy ran at the officer, and before the officer could unholster his handgun sufficiently, the bad guy was on him.

The officer had a new retention holster, was not familiar with it, and had trouble getting his handgun out. Even though he finally managed to fire one round, hitting the bad guy in the hip, the bad guy decapitated the officer with one swipe of his knife. The bad guy then proceeded to kneel on the officer's body and literally eviscerated his body.

(For those who might be thinking that the bad guy had some huge "tactical" Rambo style knife... huh uh. It was the standard Buck 110 folding hunter.)

So even though the distances between good guy and bad guy will vary, within that 21-30 feet space, unless the g.g. is very alert before the b.g. charges, without gun in hand and ready to fire, the g.g. is at a supreme disadvantage.

FWIW.

L.W.

 

[bang_bang]

My area is getting well known for Meth addicts as well, and anyone that "accidentally" stumbles into my house is going to know about it.

1. 90 pound boxer/German shepherd mix that will charge anything that walks into the house or makes an abnormal noise.
2. My Mom, this is her house, no one is going to take it.
3. Me, no one is going to hurt my family or my dog.

Mom keeps a Kel-Tec 9mm in her drawer. I keep a Witness 45 and a Dan Wesson 357 in my room. The dog, well, the BG can deal with her.

Also, the fact that a victims sex can help determine your situation of Threat or No-Threat. A woman may feel overpowered by a male, shoot and get away with self defense. A male may do the same, but not get off so easy.

 

[hiker44]

In addition to everything that has been suggested, I would tap the speaker button the phone and dial 911 and let the dispatcher hear the whole episode and, of course, tape it. Then they can decide what to do to assist, if necessary.

 

[Geno]

Thanks Leanwolf. I have tried to keep myself as refreshed as is possible on these stats, but those neurosurgeries this past summer rather smacked-me-down. I need to pull out my notes from that particular class and re-read. I have still not determined which part of these courses has been the best: the lecture portions, or the firing 700 to 750 rounds in the remaining 2 hours. I guess they are equally gratifying to me. I know..I'm a geek.

Thanks again.

Doc2005

 

[SwearNoAllegiance]

Thanks for sharing Astro. All's well that ends well, according to Shakespeare.

My roommates always whine about me locking the door "when someone is home" as they find it cumbersome to pull out their key and let themselves in. Thanks for the reminder as to why I should continue to irritate them.

I cannot say what I'd do in the heat of the moment, but I doubt I'd ever lower my weapon. I also doubt that I would have allowed them to move in any direction except to the floor. If, after the police arrive, it is determined that the reason was truthful, I'd consider asking the police to just let them go. Mistakes happen, but I don't know that until the situation is resolved.

 

[george29]

Was house sitting in a mixed neighborhood, Nice sized house. I was in the den watching TV, dogs were in the back. I hear someone jiggling the metal screen door. I cautiously approach, G17 behind my back, there's a guy about 19 trying to open the door. I say, "Can I help you?", he stares at me and jiggles the doorknob again, "Who is it you are looking for?", nothing! The guy turns and walks away, looks drunk the way he's walking but it was more than that, an emptiness I have seen before as a former cop / former EMT. I kept thanking God I always keep the door locked, imagine dealing with a hyped out Zombie. First rule to avoid a fight, don't allow for a second party to be present to fight you. Dogs, guns, barbed wire, glass shards in walls, guard towers, whatever, are meaningless if the side door/window is unlocked.

 

[Vinny]

I'm a night owl. My wife is a morning person. The result is I'm on my headphones a lot at night (movies, music, pc) but I'm always paranoid about your scenario whereby somebody comes and I'm unaware. However, I do have great watchdogs that will bark up a storm.

Glad you weren't so immersed in your game. Good job.

 

[Kind of Blued]

Good job indeed.

I'm in agreement with those who think detaining or shooting these people is a horrible idea (in so many words). I carry a gun for my own safety and for the safety of loved ones. Bystanders don't even apply in this situation. Somebody standing at a distance, repeatedly saying they're sorry, scared senseless, and giving me the "deer in the headlights" look is not a threat to my life.

If you're independently wealthy, don't mind losing your freedom periodically at a minimum, and are looking for reasons to take someone's life, then yeah, it might be a good idea.

People make mistakes. I would need a much bigger mistake to occur to start killing people.

 

[bikerdoc]

You did your best, you learned some things to do in the future. My only other advice is ,teach girl friend to react, and call 911 first.

 

[BADUNAME37]

In addition to everything that has been suggested, I would tap the speaker button the phone and dial 911 and let the dispatcher hear the whole episode and, of course, tape it. Then they can decide what to do to assist, if necessary.

Now, that is an EXCELLENT idea! Even if you don't talk to 911, they will immediately send a trooper, sheriff, or cop out to investigate at the 911 address given in their computer (don't worry, they know everyone who calls in, even unlisted numbers and cell phones).

 

[JWarren]

I'm in agreement with those who think detaining or shooting these people is a horrible idea (in so many words).

I didn't see anything that suggested that detaining a person who has entered your home was a horrible idea. Shooting, yes.


While I am not arguing with you, I stand my my original position that I would detain the persons until there was an officer present to verify their story and/or deal with it.

If the story was a cover story, letting the people go only serves as a conduit to thier next crime-- one where a person may be killed or raped.

If detainment is allowed in your jurisdiction, I don't believe that it is a "horrible" idea. Evil wins when good persons do nothing.

While I am not criticizing anyone or the Original Poster, I grow weary of the constant that people never call the police when this stories are told in S&T. It seems that it is OK that we just remove ourselves from the problem and let it go.

But I do realize that what one would do is dramatically different from what one can think to do LATER. So, I am hesitant to criticize the actions at the time. More than once, I've been in such circumstance.

I do, however, take issue with those that criticize anyone willing to detain intruders-- if it is allowed in their jurisdiction. That just passes the ills of society onto others.



-- John

 

[Kleanbore]

From Doc2005:

Odd, that's [shoot hem--they are threats]precisely what Michigan's Castle Doctrine (now legislated) says. It sure beats having to die to show self-restraint, doesn't it?

That's what you think it says? Here's what it says:

a person who uses deadly force for self defense in his or her home, contiguous private property or occupied vehicle need not first flee from a threatening attacker, and that there is a rebuttable presumption that a person who unlawfully and forcibly enters one of these is doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence, with certain minor exceptions.

For what it means, consult an attorney. In the meantime you would be well served to keep your finger off the trigger.

Here's the law:

http://www.michiganvotes.org/2005-HB-5143

From JWarren:

If detainment is allowed in your jurisdiction, I don't believe that it is a "horrible" idea.

You might change your mind after becoming the defendant in an expensive civil suit. Law enforcement officers are granted a level of immunity. Civilians are not.

 

[george29]

Murphy has some good laws, one is, if the enemy can't get away, neither can you, don't make an ambush where the enemy has no escape route.