Handgun in France

[jackowens]

This message is directed principally to Barman or someone knowledgeable in France.

I'm in California, U. S. A. and have an artillery Luger that, being 89 years old, I would like to bequeath to my son in Paris, France. I don't know whether the pistol would be classified as an antique, but, anyway, can that transfer be arranged?

Regards to all from

Jack Owens

 

[shootingthebreeze]

Check with a French Consulate (New York or Chicago)-however, gun laws are extremely strict in France-and if the Luger is a functional weapon I don't believe your son can have it on French soil.

 

[atlctyslkr]

I would say no. Maybe he could move to Italy, they seem to have better laws.

 

[Quiet]

+1 on checking with the French Consulate to find out about French gun laws.




Your 89 year old Luger is not an "antique".
Firearms 50+ years old are "curios/relics".

Defintion of an "antique firearm" under Federal laws...

18 USC 921
(a) As used in this chapter—
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

 

[mbogo]

Unless your son has expressed explicit interest in inheriting that gun, you're better off selling it and leaving him that money as part of his inheritance (or spending it yourself).

mbogo

 

[berrieberrie]

(...) however, gun laws are extremely strict in France-and if the Luger is a functional weapon I don't believe your son can have it on French soil.(...)

Sure he can. He'll need a prefectural authorisation category 4 (fancy expression for "gun permit"), but that will not only allow him to own the gun, but also to buy ammo and shoot it. Biggest hurdle I see is getting the thing to France; it's notoriously hard to import guns from the US into Europe (ITAR and so on) so unless there's a provision for this type of gun, exporting it to France will require some paperwork and money...

(...) Maybe he could move to Italy, they seem to have better laws.(...)
Eh, no. Especially not if the Luger happens to be in 9mm Para, which is restricted for police and military in Italy (civilians shoot 9x21).

 

[cambeul41]

Is your son permanently in France and does he want it? If he is planning on returning (?) to the States and does want it, perhaps a relative or family friend would be willing to hold it for him.

 

[barnetmill]

IIRC correctly several years ago many brits sent their handguns to france. If true you might look into how it was done.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

+1 on checking with the French Consulate to find out about French gun laws.




Your 89 year old Luger is not an "antique".
Firearms 50+ years old are "curios/relics".

Defintion of an "antique firearm" under Federal laws...

18 USC 921
(a) As used in this chapter—
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

Quiet, he is needing FRENCH laws not AMERICAN ones. In France, the 9mm luger is considered a military cartridge and not allowed for civilian ownership. BUT, if your son can get it classed as a collection piece (WW2 era weapons can be classified as such) then he MAY be able to keep it in France.

The suggestion of contacting the French Consulate is the best idea in a matter such as this.

 

[Shoot The Moon]

IIRC correctly several years ago many brits sent their handguns to france. If true you might look into how it was done.

Yes, that's true - after the '97 ban. I did not - but have many friends who did. I will try to find out and post here. By the way..... importing the Luger via the UK even as a transit would be a nightmare as all cartridge firing guns less than 24" OA length are illegal here.

 

[berrieberrie]

In France, the 9mm luger is considered a military cartridge and not allowed for civilian ownership. BUT, if your son can get it classed as a collection piece (WW2 era weapons can be classified as such) then he MAY be able to keep it in France.

Please, check your facts and don't discourage the OP from trying to get his son a great heirloom. Guns chambered in 9mm Luger and their ammo are allowed for civilan ownership and use in France - not in Italy, though.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Please, check your facts and don't discourage the OP from trying to get his son a great heirloom. Guns chambered in 9mm Luger and their ammo are allowed for civilan ownership and use in France - not in Italy, though.

As recent as I could find here are the current regs concerning firearms in France. Note that CLASS 1 are MILITARY cartridges (Which France calls 9mm) and require some serious hoops to jump through for a civilian to own.

NEW FRENCH FIREARMS LAW FROM JANUARY 2006:

22lr bolt action rifles require either a hunting license or a target shooting license to purchase. Purchasing of ammunition should now also require relevant paperwork! This is also the case for the not so interesting 9mm garden guns. Ammunition now also requires membership of either a chasse or a gun club in France. However some shops are still selling ammunition without checking your membership etc.

To find a gun club in France near to you try this link: http://www.fftir.asso.fr/ there is a box on the right hand side that allows you to search for a gun club in France by department etc.

OK folks here’s the ‘definitive guide’ to the acquisition of legal firearms in France…but don’t shoot me if I get it wrong. I’d better add that it’s taken a while to get the hang of this subject and my French is not perfect so errors maybe included in this text.…..

Firearms are divided into categories here in France I’m not so sure on the hunting legislation for the retention of firearms, so I’ll stick to what I know best: Target shooting.

Paperwork involved in ownership of firearms in France.

The easiest firearms to buy here are 7th category firearms which include bolt action .22lr rifles and black powder pistols (possibly black powder rifles as well not sure). To buy these all you have to have is proof of your address and identity. The Cart de Sejour covers all this perfectly.

To buy anything else for target shooting you’ll have to join the ‘Federation Francaise De Tir’ which normally involves joining a local target shooting club as well all in for under 100 Euros. This gives you access to the club range and insurance, plus most importantly the ability to buy category 5 firearms which are: rifles that are not self loading and are not military calibres. This happens very quickly, that is you can join the federation and buy a rifle at the same time. With this membership you can also buy shotguns because clay pigeon shooting is of course not hunting but target shooting.

One prerequisite is that you'll have to have an address in France, this could be a rented property, but normally this would be your own house. The best place to find Brittany Property for sale is: www.brittany-property-direct.com

If you want to buy hand guns and or self loading weapons (these are in categories 4 and 1) then you’ll have to get a carnet de tir. This is simply a log book which you must get stamped at your club every two months as proof that you go shooting and are seen by the other club members.

After you’ve collected 3 stamps (6 months) you can then complete a green piece of paper from your club called ‘Avis Preable’ which is signed by the regional president confirms that they think you are OK to buy some more interesting firearms.

With the ‘Avis Preable’ you can get another piece of paper called something along the lines of ‘Demand de la retention des arms’ I got mine from the Gendarmerie who also helped me fill it in and sent off the copies to the Prefecture for me. This paper is filled in requesting a specific calibre weapon and describing if it’s self loading pistol/revolver or rifle etc…You also have to take copies of your Carnet d Tir with it’s three stamps, a copy of your Federation Francais de Tir membership card, the ‘Avis Preable’ and a receipt or photograph of your gun cabinet.

After a few weeks I had a visit from the Gendarmes with my approved demand de la retention des arms, which allowed me to buy the specified type of arm. For each firearm you will have to complete one of these demands. The demand is only valid for three months when it comes back so you have to go shopping!

Firearm categories in France:

1 Self loading rifles, Self loading pistols, Pistols/Rifles that are a military calibre.
4 Revolvers of non military calibres, self loading 22lr pistols and rifles.
5 Rifles not self loading of non military calibres.
8 Deactivated firearms.

Firearm Calibres Classified as Military in France

7.62mm, 9mm, .303 British, .45, .50 The classification is not based on power it is simply on the fact that a specific calibre has been deemed a military one. This list isn't quite complete but covers most of the popular choices. All of these calibres are categorised as 1st Category in France.


Buying Ammunition in France & Reloading

Apart from 22lr where there are no limits, no ID required (possibly an age limit though) all other calibres of ammunition firstly require the owner to have the relevant paperwork for the calibre and secondly you are limited to 1000 rounds per annum per gun. This means that reloading is very popular/essential. The limit also applies to empty cartridges as well (I think) but once you have them there is no limit to powder/bullets or caps. ASFAIK to buy reloading powders, bullets and caps doesn't require the permit but to buy cases does. With the Permit de la retention des arms you have a section which is stamped whenever you buy new ammunition or cases, therefore limiting you to 1000 rounds per annum.

Out of interest if you want to own a tank and take it target shooting these are in category 2 and there are firing ranges around for these but not in Brittany! When not going to the range the firing mechanism must be handed into the Gendarmerie for safe keeping.

Your local gun shop should be able to provide information/membership help etc…

 

[clutch]

JackOwens,

If your son does not plan to stay in France all his life but you are worried about the disposition of the arm due to your age, perhaps you can put it on display at a museum in the US until such time as your son comes back to the US. Transfer ownership in our country and let him work it from there.

Just a thought and thank you for your service, I suspect you served in WWII.

Clutch

 

[Zoogster]

Freedom_fighter_in_IL said:

As recent as I could find here are the current regs concerning firearms in France. Note that CLASS 1 are MILITARY cartridges (Which France calls 9mm) and require some serious hoops to jump through for a civilian to own.

Keep in mind that is just for ownership of things already inside the nation.

Every few years the EU and UN implement additional regulations or set more restrictive goals for members to meet regarding arms trade, possession, registration, ammunition restrictions, tracking etc.
The areas that tend to be implemented most rapidly is at the import/export level because these are implemented with far less opposition from the citizens within the country.


Even the US has become active in restricting what goes out in addition to the more traditional concern of what comes in.
When the ATF decides to declare barrels restricted parts that cannot be imported like recently you don't see a huge outcry like if they did it domestically. While doing the same thing within the US for domestic barrels would get major outcry.
You also see almost no outcry when they restrict what people can send outside the country, citizens are not quick to defend the firearm rights of foreigners or their ability to acquire them.
The same happens in other nations, they implement import and export restrictions quickly and they are often far more extensive than even the laws for ownership for the domestic population.


Just as importing arms into the US, one of the least restricted countries, is more difficult (think 922r craziness) than the requirements to own them you will often find similar situations in other nations. The requirement for ownership may be attainable, but the requirements for import (which obviously require the requirements for ownership be previously met as well) will often be some serious additional steps.

Then you have the export restrictions from the US. Gone are the days when they only cared what came in, like a sovereign nation should, today they want you to go through proper procedures and get permission to take such things beyond their sovereign control too. And organizations like the UN apply pressure to make such things as difficult as possible. Trying to discourage the trade of arms between non-military/LEO citizens of different nations.

 

[berrieberrie]

As recent as I could find here are the current regs concerning firearms in France. Note that CLASS 1 are MILITARY cartridges (Which France calls 9mm) and require some serious hoops to jump through for a civilian to own.

That's just a classification, which - in this case - doesn't mean that civilians can't have access to them. As to the "serious hoops to jump through": we're talking Europe here, not the US. Gun ownership requires a lot of red tape (club memberships, tests, backgroun checks, registration...), time and money almost everywhere around here, and France can still be considered as one of the "easier" countries to own and shoot firearms without too many restrictions. But I can see where somebody living in the US would consider all this a "de facto" prohibition of free, civilian gun ownership...

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Yeah berrie, it looks to me like they make it too much of a pain to bother with. As well as probably too expensive to fool with for the average citizen. Governments way of keeping the average income unarmed. Price, time, red tape them into submission!

 

[berrieberrie]

Yeah berrie, it looks to me like they make it too much of a pain to bother with. As well as probably too expensive to fool with for the average citizen. Governments way of keeping the average income unarmed. Price, time, red tape them into submission!

That's exactly what I am trying to say. As a European gun owner and shooter, I can tell you guys that we need to fight everyday for a piece of those rights you are (with good reason) taking for granted. I'd say that on average, European gun laws can more or less be compared to those in NYC, and it takes a LOT of dedication to bother with the paperwork just to be able to shoot at some paper targets.

 

[jackowens]

Dear Friends,

Thanks to one and all for the interest taken and info provided. I'm mulling the matter over and will have my son do the same.

Regards,

Jack Owens

 

[BleysAhrens]

That's exactly what I am trying to say. As a European gun owner and shooter, I can tell you guys that we need to fight everyday for a piece of those rights you are (with good reason) taking for granted. I'd say that on average, European gun laws can more or less be compared to those in NYC, and it takes a LOT of dedication to bother with the paperwork just to be able to shoot at some paper targets.

What are we taking for granted?

 

[Art Eatman]

Closed because the OP is satisfied.