Has open carry ever been PROVEN to be a bad idea?

[Grape Ape]

Open Carry w/ an MN permit

I suspect that what the assorted experts meant to say was that the permit only allows open carry in MN and that when leaving the state you should cover up or disarm depending which state you are entering.
What they should have said was "We work in and/or for MN and those are the laws with which we are familiar so if you want to carry outside of MN you had better do some research".

 

[mmike87]

Haven't read the whole thread, so maybe I'm missing the point, but I have a very good historical example of open carry, combined with local gun control laws, resulted in quite a shootout, and several deaths:

The OK Corral, Tombstone, AZ. 1881

So would this "shootout" not have happened if all parties had been CCW? I think I'll have to disagree on that one.

 

[Tried'nTrue]

I think you greatly over-estimate how much panic open carry causes among regular people.

+1 to this statement. We in the US live in a culture that's overly fearful of offending people... we've become paranoid to the point that we're afraid of offending people who probably won't even notice, much less be offended by, the behavior in question. IMHO, this mindset pertains to all of life, not just to weapons and the carrying thereof.
While it's true that there are some excessively loud voices that nay-say gun ownership in general, I think that we as gun advocates can tend to transfer our concern about negative publicity onto the general public, regardless of the public's actual mentality. On the plus side, we can use any public interest to the good of society: we can be polite and respectful and, if plausible, give individuals a bit of correct thinking on gun ownership. Yes, we open ourselves up to criticism, too, but that's a risk I'm willing to take.

 

[bachman1961]

Beethoven; a related question.. ...

I think the number of people that openly carry answers your question in a rehtorical sense. I don't know of any stats but here in Colorado where open carry is almost 'advertised', I rarely see or notice open carry. To me that proves a point in the comfort level people have with the option. Naturally, we would be assuming the lack of open carry where it's a feasable option is due to fear of being a target but another factor could be convenience/comfort of carry. Just the fact that I don't see it in wide use leads me to think it is a matter of folks having the ccw permit and realizing an advantage with concealment. To me, the calibre of the weapon is the fact that nobody knows you have it.

**One other side note; Many places here have signage stating open display of Firearms is prohibited. That would force you to convert from open carry to concealment if you have a ccw permit. Without the ccw permit you'd be S O L and have to store your sidearm somewhere. Why invite that ?

 

[JMusic]

OK I just scanned through this but I would discourage open carry here's why. I some situations open carry may discourage a crime but a pro will simply adjust to this. One of the most important weapons in your arsenal is the element of surprise. Don't underestimate this. In other threads I have stated that I would not tell someone I was armed if confronted. IN fact when they see the gun my expectation is to shoot. I decided a long time ago that if I had to draw my weapon I would make a conscious decision "Not to Shoot". I would act confident prior to pulling my weapon. I would exhaust all the other means necessary to ascertain this is a deadly incident. But once I drew the weapon I would have Bad intentions unless something drastic happened from the threat. Surviving a deadly encounter is a matter of milliseconds. Bill Jordan said it best there are no second place winners in a gun fight.
Jim

 

[drinks]

An aside;
The O.K.Corral incident was actually murder under cover of LEO action.
The people shot HAD disarmed themselves in town, only recovering their weapons when leaving town, the reason they were at a corral was to get horses and saddles and leave, actually in compliance with the local ordinances.
Earp was really just a murdering gambler who had his rep built up by a dime novel hack .

 

[Phaetos]

Mindpilot,
You are wrong, and so is who ever gave you the information.
www.opencarry.org is where the map comes from.
They list state laws, outlining where open carry is legal.

I have to jump in here. Mindpilot is quite wrong. I live in Louisiana. You can OPEN-CARRY without a permit as much as you want to. If someone complains, usually all the cop will do is well, nothing. You must have a Concealed Permit to CONCEAL your weapon on you. This also means you can carry open at any time.

 

[Zedicus]

I wonder if Regularly open carrying while having a CCW and occasionally Carrying Concealed would be considered Baiting?

seriously though the reasons I'm for open carry can be found in the definition of the word "Desensitize"...

de·sen·si·tize (d-sns-tz)
v. de·sen·si·tized, de·sen·si·tiz·ing, de·sen·si·tiz·es

1. To render insensitive or less sensitive (as with a nerve or tooth).
2. To make an individual nonreactive or insensitive to an antigen.
3. To make a person emotionally insensitive or unresponsive, as by long exposure or repeated shocks.

if we can Desensitize enough of the general public we can bring more over to our side of the fence out of as little as curiosity, and therefore make our work on the legal battlefield much easier.

 

[The-Fly]

i personally asked a Greeley, Co police officer what would happen if you open carried in Greeley. He said that if anyone called and complained, you'd be arrested for disorderly conduct. So even if your state says you can open carry, its probably a good idea to see how the local police feel about it as well. I think that sucks, but I'm not the one enforcing the law sadly.

 

[Zedicus]

& I could just imagine how quickly they would change there minds if a good lawyer got ahold of that one!

 

[motoman]

How they feel?

i personally asked a Greeley, Co police officer what would happen if you open carried in Greeley. He said that if anyone called and complained, you'd be arrested for disorderly conduct. So even if your state says you can open carry, its probably a good idea to see how the local police feel about it as well. I think that sucks, but I'm not the one enforcing the law sadly.

The day will never come when I check with my local police to see how they "feel" about anything.

 

[AStone]

If open carry was implemented a lot more, and without BlissNinnies bleating here and there - it would I think be so ''normal'' that BG's would be not influenced - there'd be too many folks with obvious firearms.

I love the term 'blissninny'. It perfectly describes too many folks in my lovely little town, and even too many in a major city just north of here.

And, yes, I agree with P95Carry: if more OC'd, then it'd become 'normal'.

I plan to do my share, soon as I get that CCW permit.

I'll just say, these days with so many gun-shy folks around - discretion is the better part of valor...

+1

Nem

 

[Mad Chemist]

Only my closest friends and family know I carry. It's no one else's business. I am not a billboard and I don't advertise.

Another thing, open carry may work great if you don't live in a densely populated area but if you live in a city you are going to run into strange and deranged poeple frequently. I'd rather not give them a reason to focus their attention on me.

 

[AStone]

Another thing, open carry may work great if you don't live in a densely populated area but if you live in a city you are going to run into strange and deranged poeple frequently. I'd rather not give them a reason to focus their attention on me.

I recently (=4 months ago) had the opportunity to move to one of Norte Americana's most (r)evolutionary cities, just two hours north of here.

But due to unforseen events, after 2 months of seeking a business space in said city, things just didn't work out, and I'm still living in small city, USA.

Just as well. There are enough 'deranged people' in this little burg to last a lifetime.

<tilt >

Easier to ccw here than there.

Nem

 

[NineseveN]

All of this is nice and all, but the thread titles asks for PROOF that open carry is a bad idea, not your feelings, my feelings, or the friggin Greely County Sherriff's feelings on the matter....I'm still looking for some proof, haven't been able to locate any myself.

 

[AStone]

Proof may be problematic

All of this is nice and all, but the thread titles asks for PROOF that open carry is a bad idea, not your feelings, my feelings, or the friggin Greely County Sherriff's feelings on the matter....I'm still looking for some proof, haven't been able to locate any myself.

NineseveN, I think your nudging us back towards Beethoven's original post is reasonable, with one caveat.

First, let's review the original post. (Sometimes after reading a few pages, I start to lose sight of the original topic. )

Has open carry ever been PROVEN to be a bad idea?

Invariably when open carry is discussed on forums, there are people talking about how it will make you a target instead of having the desired effect of people leaving you alone.

Has this ever been PROVEN to be true?

Can anyone provide factual evidence for even a single case in which a civilian was actully targeted by thugs because he was openly carrying?

While I think I understand Beethoven's motivation for asking that, and think it's an interesting question for discussion, I'll suggest that "proof" in this case may be problematic. I like his use of the word "evidence" better, where evidence is slightly less rigorous than "proof".

Here's why.

The concept of "proof" demands cause and effect logic. When one is working with a simple system, proof isn't so hard to come by. If the cue ball strikes the 8 ball dead on into the corner pocket, one has 'proof' of the cause.

But when trying to sort out the multiplicity of factors involved in a complex social situation, where a person who was openly carrying may have been 'targeted' (i.e., harmed in some way) because s/he was carrying, well that becomes relatively more sticky.

For example, let's say that an OC {= open carry, not obsessive compulsive} person was attacked by someone screaming "I'm going to hurt you because you carry a gun." For grins, let's add that five people near the attackee heard the attacker utter those words, and watched the attack.

Can one necessarily conclude that "proves" that OC "caused" the attack?

What if the attacker was merely deranged, looking for any excuse to attack. Could have been that even if he saw someone eating chocolate ice cream, he would have decided to attack for that reason. (I've been exposed to such unstable folks several times in my life. Schizophrenic "street" individuals come to mind.)

My examples are simplistic, bordering on absurd, and it may seem that I'm picking a semantic point. But my bigger point is this: when dealing with complex social phenomena, "proof" is hard to come by.

In fact, when one looks at this issue scientifically, from the perspective of probability theory (which I have a graduate degree in), 100% "proof" (i.e., probability = 1 or 0) cannot be obtained in most complex situations. One can only speak in terms of probabilities.

I like the idea of "evidence" better, and even more so, I encourage us to look for evidence that OC was A (not necessarily THE) factor involved, and to remember that complex social situations don't always yield to simple analysis.

Having said that, this IS an interesting and relevant discussion. I look forward to reading more.

Nem

 

[NineseveN]

Nema:

All those words, and you said basically, "let's ask for evidence, not 'proof' as evidence is useful and proof is tough to absolutely derrive" and I am okay with that, probably a better pursuit.


I still have seen nothing more than assumption and conjecture so far. I agree, it does make sense that OC would, in theory, be problematic given a lot of these scenarios, but how often do they actually occur?

 

[AStone]

Nema:

All those words, and you said basically...

I think I'll hire you to write chapter summaries for the book I'm going to write.

Nem

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Say where?

I recently (=4 months ago) had the opportunity to move to one of Norte Americana's most (r)evolutionary cities, just two hours north of here.

But due to unforseen events, after 2 months of seeking a business space in said city, things just didn't work out, and I'm still living in small city, USA.

Just as well. There are enough 'deranged people' in this little burg to last a lifetime.

Nem

If it was Portland where you were considering moving, that means you are in/near Eugene? Lemme tell you there are plenty of moonbats and regressive phyla in Eugene.

 

[AStone]

If it was Portland where you were considering moving, that means you are in/near Eugene? Lemme tell you there are plenty of moonbats and regressive phyla in Eugene.

Yep.

But of course, that's one thing that makes it so ... so ... interesting. Never a dull moment.

 

[NineseveN]

I think I'll hire you to write chapter summaries for the book I'm going to write.

Nah, you'd just come off as a smart-arse that way, much more genuine when you're verbose.

 

[Travis McGee]

To each his own, and I applaud those who want to push open carry.

But I'd rather be a "covert operator" and keep the element of surprise. If you are going to go up against armed BGs in killer mode, you will need every advantage you can muster, and surprise is near the top of the list!

 

[MountainPeak]

There is nothing wrong with open carry. I have for years.. What IS wrong, is living in a place that won't allow you to. I guess those evil firearms spook to many of you folks. The fact IS, the reason so many posters don't like open carry is, they can't!!!! They live in a state like Texas, profess their state to be pro-gun, and can't quite seem to reconcile the fact it NEEDS improvement. WANNA BET!!!!!! Lets see, "Right to Bear Arms", as long as you don't show it to anyone that might be offended. Maybe you boys need to go for a new AMENDMENT!

 

[MountainPeak]

I can hear the "Founding Fathers" now. Hey, let's make sure we have a "Right to Bear Arms". O.K., but only if you get a permit from the government, and hide them when going about your business.:banghead:

 

[mmike87]

The day will never come when I check with my local police to see how they "feel" about anything.

Uh, yeah. No kidding. If they arrest me for simply doing something totally legal in my state, then I guess I'll just retire early with the lawsuit proceeds.

WhoTF does that cop think he is arresting someone for "disorderly conduct" for open carrying when it is legal?